Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

Skins, flames, and 'tude

Criticism or advice?

Something prompted by a recent upload....probably worthy of a general post.....

Just a 'gentle reminder'..skinning started long before XP came along. It has always been a personal process. Someone who 'could do it' 'would do it'. Then, they may, or may not subsequently choose to share it with others and upload it.

Because they were 'personal creations' they may suit the author admirably, with or without 'issues' that others may perceive on their own systems.

[Case in point...my WB skins were all designed for Litestep and, to the XP Explorer shell user they are not just 'buggy', they are very incomplete....yet on an LS system they work just fine.]

When suggesting there are errors, etc...and the author remarks 'I don't use IE so it doesn't affect me'...you are left with 2 options. Either adjust it yourself, or POLITELY suggest it could benefit with/from amendments.

There really are only two rules to remember.

1. The skins are given freely...appreciate that.

and

2. Fellow site members deserve consideration and respect.

Remember...skinning is supposed to be fun. There IS no room for 'attitude'....

skinning

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Well said Jafo!

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I agree 100%...
I know exactly the skin in question and the comment that perhaps sparked this thread..there was absolutely no reason to go to the extreme the individual did..

::sighs:: Ah well
Zero.

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Hear here.

I agree.

I look at it as a gift.

I had no personal stake in any of the creations uploaded here or anywhere else. I did not commission anything.

I had no say in color scheme, buttons, tool bar, etc, etc, etc.

Unless the creator accidently left something out, it's complete.

Criticisms should be contructive and conducive to helping improvement in skill.

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I agree fully!!!

There is no room for a___s here

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teddybearcholla

Join Date 12/2002

+803

Well said, Admin Jafo!!

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Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

Nice reminder of what it is all about, Jafo.

Instead of being a critic, one could get the proper skinning software and create one to their liking if the freely offered ones don't suit. It may take some effort, but - hey, a great lesson may result.

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*Stand up, applauds, realizes that he is only one standing, sits*

This is kind of like the government...affect change, shut up (respectfully) or get out.

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*nods in agreement to everything said*

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Fuzzy Logic

Join Date 05/2002

+493

Respect seems to be a forgotten art these days.

The internet has given people the (apparent) freedon to say what they like without fear of consequence. Unfortunately good manners are the first casualty

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Attitude is the author's prerogative, not the user's.

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

Nice post Jafo. I apologized for my involvement as best as I could. Some things were said that others did not have a chance to read before they were editied. I honestly felt like I had good restraint. Sometimes I have a little too much pride in WC and don't want the libraries filling with poorly made skins. I never want to hear someone say, pfft all the stuff at WC is garbage.
To each his own, and that's the way it should be. In the real world people that don't come to WC are going to knock it anyways. I won't be doing anymore policing.

Now, It has also come to my attention that I might possibly be trying to chase away new skinners. This really hit me deeply since I have spent countless hours helping people get started, fix bugs, etc. I really hope that I am being oversensitive and this is not the case. If anyone has come to think that I am out to get newbies, I am sorry for anything I did to make that seem so. I would never try to chase away someone new. If the author of the skin in question had asked for help, I would have in a second.

I may tend to be outspoken sometimes and I feel like I am monthly apologizing for something I said. A good dose of lurking might be the right thing for awhile.

Action and reaction.....its the reaction part I often have had trouble restraining. I am working on it.

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WOM

Join Date 01/2002

+253

It never suprises me that threads like these have to be posted every few months. Sometimes its the way people say things, not what they are saying that ruffles some feathers. Nice post Jafo.

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butch123

Join Date 01/2004

+201

Super Wizop Fuzzy Logic,in agreement with everything you said..

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Good one Jafo. This did indeed need to be restated for the benefit of everyone. There are always newcomers who don't really know how all this works, and even some of the older (with all due respect

) Wincustomizers seem to forget these points.

With that said... let's get back to it!

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I agree with Jafo on his points although I would add a little. I would suggest that authors in general make it clear if there may be issues with certain apps or if its made with a particular user base in mind. Most do do this I believe, and I am not familiar with the skin in question, but I think some flames or tude could be averted with that kind of information.

Posted via WinCustomize Browser/Stardock Central

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I second the motion. As a skinner, a derogatory comment lessens the spirit and the desire to create some more. so this thread should lift anybody's spirit whose skin has been trampled down.

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Ah heck somebody got flamed and I didn't even get to see the burnt bodys dang.
But realy it just "Human nature" to insert foot in mouth ooh toenails

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starkers

Join Date 05/2004

+1153

said it before on another thread: if it's not constructive, keep it to yourself.
you hit the nail on the head, fuzzy logic, manners on the net are a casualty of bravery from the other end of a wire, as is respect. the question is: would these critics be so vocal if they had to deliver the flaming in person?
newbie skinners may lack the skills and experience of the old timers, but they obviously compensate with effort and desire, which is to be commended, not undermined.
without the newbies (old timers going out to pasture), does skinning have any future at all? in that case, then, help them raise the bar if standards are your issue. everyone has to start somewhere, and for those who take it upon themselves to flame others, just take a moment to imagine where you'd be if the rug had been pulled from under your feet.

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HG_Eliminator

Join Date 07/2002

+354

flames belong charbroiling my burgers ..not on the boards .....

to post an opinion is fine ...*** thanks for the skin but i dont like it**** acceptable opinion......**DUDE THIS SUX** is not acceptable nor is it a critique...

a critique requires an informed factual evaluation of the object at hand,offering relevant information on bugs and or errors of said object..or even sugestions of how to make the object more useable, if needed....

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Daiwa

Join Date 07/2001

+351

bravery from the other end of a wire

"the bravery of being out of range" - Roger Waters (great album, BTW)

It is a problem for the net. Lots of things get written that would never be spoken in the subject's presence - I've been guilty of it, I'm sure. I would not in any way want to stifle constructive critiques, however - as a skinner, I want to hear from users about the things I've missed or implemented poorly in a skin.

Thanks for the netiquette reminder, Jafo.

Cheers,
Daiwa

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Lots of things get written that would never be spoken in the subject's presence

LoL..I guess I am the *exact opposite of that.. I mind my P's & Q's moreso when on the web than I do "face to face" and I admit that at times I would relish the opportunity to be "face to face" with certain individuals so I could express myself without regard for things such as ToS's. I have never been shy about telling anyone *exactly what I thought and personally feel it is healthier to do so...
I do so despise those that feel the need to "nitpick" someone behind their back because they do not have the fortitude to stand up and say it to the person face to face..
The web has actually taught me a bit of restraint and caused me to seek new ways to express myself without stepping on toes that should not be invovled to begin with..

But I agree, there are alot of people that use the medium to hide behind and say whatever they will simply because they do not have to face the same reprocussions that they would in "real life" or "face to face" if you will... it's a shame.

Fortunately Jafo and all who work here at WC strive to keep the site at least "civil" in this regard and I thank all of them for it.

Zero.

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I am like Zero - I tend to be more aware of what I say and how I say it when on the Internet or Emailing...Zero accused me of being "too damn nice" the other day

Of course, in a face to face I have a little less restraint in what I say and make it very clear how I feel - something I am working on - while it is good to express onesself, there are ways to do it that are not so confrontational....

Even though I am not personally a skinner, I can relate to feedback from a design point of view for web UIs, and while I appreciate all feedback I do not have to agree with it all. The person offering me the feedback is unknown to me, doesn't owe me anything, and doesn't know anything about me: why should I be upset because s/he didn't like something I made? We all like to get positive feedback and told that we are doing a great job and that our "work" rocks, but that isn't always going to happen - gods know I have turned out some really crappy stuff in my day that I thought was the bomb ::sigh:: I learned from people telling me the stuff I did was crappy and then helping me to learn how to make it better.

I guess what I am saying is let the nasty comments roll off your back there is no need to respond to them inkind and lower yourself to their level. Yes I agree with Jafo that one should use netiquette and one should be polite and positive, unfortunately we cannot control all the different types that come to places like WC, so we also need to look at oursleves and make sure that we are not "reactive" to a negative comment....

just my 2 cents...

Raymond

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I've been into customization since the mid 90's, when it all started for me on a Mac Performa 410. When I moved to a PC in the late 90's, I was into the LiteStep scene until the early 00's and then finally here with OD. One thing that I have seen stay constant in all that time is the 'attitude' on both sides of the fence, the new-comers and the more established members as well. There seems to be a sense of arrogance on the Internet that would best be left on the other side of the keyboard.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

Ah....'duality'.......

Colonel: Marine, what is that button on your body armour?
Joker: A peace symbol, sir.
Colonel: Where'd you get it?
Joker: I don't remember, sir.
Colonel: What is that you've got written on your helmet?
Joker: "Born to Kill", sir.
Colonel: You write "Born to Kill" on you helmet, and you wear a peace button. What's that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?
Joker: No, sir.
Colonel: Well what is it supposed to mean?
Joker: I don't know, sir.
Colonel: You don't know very much do you?
Joker: No, sir.
Colonel: You better get your head and your ass wired together or I will take a giant shit on you.
Joker: Yes, sir.
Colonel: Now answer my question, or you'll be standing tall before The Man.
Joker: I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man sir.
Colonel: The what?
Joker: The duality of man, the Jungian thing, sir.
Colonel: Who's side are you on, son?
Joker: Our side, sir.
Colonel: Don't you love your country?
Joker: Yes, sir.
Colonel: Well how about getting with the program? Why don't you jump on the team and c'mon in for the big win?
Joker: Yes, sir.
Colonel: Son, all I've ever asked of my Marines is for them to obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the Vietnamese because inside every gook, there is an American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've got to try to keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.
Joker: Aye aye, sir.

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If it aint constuctive then dont say it...if you dont like a particular skin or part of it then dont use it...very simple.Just be glad that its free.Plenty of skins that people would use and plenty that wouldnt be used at the end of the day regardless of what software is being used its a case of each to their own and we all have different taste's.Constructive is prefered to destructive comments on this site.

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