grayhaze

Join Date 07/2001

A Ripper Returns

Today I received the following e-mail:

I am the author of a shareware program which can be skinned. It is a
program launcher for the windows platform. It is currently in advanced beta
testing.

I have seen some of your skins for window blinds and I like them very much,
so would like to port them to the format used by the skin engine I am using.

I am writing you to ask for permission to include some of the ported skins
in the distribution package of my application, or in my web site as
additional skins for the program.

If you grant me such permission, I would like also to know what sort of
copyright notice would you like me to use, including links to your site. Of
course, if you don't want me to use any of your skins, please let me know it.

Thank you very much in advance,

- Manuel Onate

PS: In case you are interested, you can download a beta version of my
software at the following URL.

http://www.momsoftco.com/beta.htm

I was pleasantly surprised that someone had actually bothered to ask for my permission for once, so I went to his site and took a look at what he had to show. Being the inquisitive type, I chose to download the 'skins.zip' file before the application itself, and here's a list of all the ripped skins in that file:

700is
XP Corona
XI01
X Pulse
WinAqua
Tiamat
Teknision
Sinter
Seer
Saphardana
QuOS
QNX3 Blue
Phase Change
Perfect Whistler 2
Paradox
Olympics OS
OliveBlinds
metalX v1.5
Metallic
MacWinToshGL
MacPC
MacOSX WB
LunaUI
Ketix
Homestead
Hang On WB
FlatMac
Ferix
E-mergency
Crux Remake
CE101
AlekOS
AceToos
XP Platinum

Now all this seems rather familiar, as I'm pretty sure these are the exact same skins that were ripped by that Visual Basic programmer a while ago, and who was subsequently ordered to remove the files from distribution by a whole lot of people here. Could this be the same person? It looks like this is yet another commercial application with our skins included.

I haven't responded yet, as I'm trying to compose myself before doing so. Should an admin feel like intervening his e-mail address is monate@momsoftco.com. >

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My response:

Manuel,

I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised to receive your e-mail as you seemed to be going about things the right way. However, upon taking a look at your site I was somewhat shocked to see that you are already making a 'port' of one of my skins available for download in the 'skins.zip' package on the beta page without first receiving permission from myself to do so. You are also distributing many other illegal versions of skins which are created by my fellow WindowBlinds skinners, and in many cases personal friends.

Please remove this file from your site immediately, or I will have no option other than to seek legal action against your company for damages. Also be aware that I have notified the authors of the other skins concerned, and you should expect to hear from them shortly.

I find it somewhat unusual that you would contact me for permission, and lead me to a page on which you are blatantly ignoring the permission procedure. I can only imagine that this was a mistake on your part, but is no less serious whatever the reasons.

I will also not be granting you permission to use any of my work in your current or future projects.

Regards,

Kevin Purcell
grayhaze.com

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if he asked you for permissions, maby he did also by the others. Good move anyway to let us know

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Apocalypse_67

Join Date 01/2003

None of my skins are on the list, yet he sent me the same letter requesting permission to use my skins.
Thank you Grayhaze for the heads-up

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adni18

Join Date 05/2001

+70

I have received exactly the same e-mail as you and he all ready has 2 of my skins in the "skins.zip" file, OliveBlinds and XP Platinum, at least he uses the original names.
I didn't answer him, thanks for your response to him grayhaze

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

I'll formulate a letter explaining the error of his ways...

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His latest response:

Kevin,

I am awfully sorry. I think that there might be a misunderstanding.

Please note that this is a very private beta. The page you visited has no
external links, and the only way to get there is obtaining the URL from me.
The beta testers are a very limited group of long time users of previous
versions of my product. The total number of testers is eight persons, nine
if you include myself. If you would be so kind so as to visit my public
pages (http://www.momsoftco.com) you will see that there isn't any mention
to this beta taking place, nor that we are indeed working on a new version
(the program I am updating was called MomShell). By the way, the site is
"veeery" old, so please forgive me for it's horrible look (I am also
working in a new web site).

Since skin support is important for my program, I needed to make some skins
available to testers, so that I could be sure that they looked well in
different systems. On the other hand, I didn't want to talk with skin
authors until I had a working version of my application. I thought that
some of the authors, like you have done, would care to look at the
application, and if many bugs were still around would prefer not to grant
permission in these circumstances. Sort of a chicken and egg situation.

Also note that the skins you have downloaded will most probably don't work
on the final version, because I have still to change them somewhat,
precisely to better handle copyright issues. This is why I asked you for
feedback about what sort of copyright notice should I give. Something that
I have not solved yet is how to prevent people posting skins that have not
been made by them. I suppose you have more experience and maybe could help
me on this matter.

For example, I don't know if you, as an author, would prefer that I placed
a screen shot of your skin on my site, and required that users go to your
site to download them, or rather would like that I host the skin files on
my site but placed a clickable link on my application to your site.

Another issue I want to discuss with you, skin authors, is an idea I have.
I have placed a button on the main window which can be replaced with any
image. Maybe you would like that the skins included a bitmap to be used by
that button, and that clicking on it would open the browser of the user to
the authors skin site.

Finally, I don't know if you prefer that I take the skins posted on your
site and convert them myself, or if you prefer to take the time to do the
conversion yourselves and have better control of the process. I am working
on a little utility which can make most of the conversion automatically.

You should understand that, being myself a shareware programmer, I take
copyright issues very seriously. I would never, and I mean, never, use a
copyrighted material without the copyright owner's previous approval.

Please let me know if you change your opinion about not including your
skins on the released package or my site. And please, accept my apologies
if you think that the use I have made of your skins, and those of your
friends, is not correct. Reading again my previous message I see that I did
not mentioned that the beta was completely private, so that I can
understand your feelings very well.

I look forward to hearing from you. Please let me know what do you think,

- Manuel Oñate

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Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age, but I do actually believe him this time. It still doesn't make it any more acceptable, whether he's making those skins available to 8 or 800 people, but I can kind of see where he's coming from.

I'll post my response in a minute.

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I believe this to be genuine... I also do not think it to be abnormal to create the ports before asking permission. I always provide a screen shot of ports that I request permission for. I think he deserves a chance to show some awesome looking skins with his new utility.

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The response:

Manuel,

I can understand why you have those skins available to download, and that the page you directed me to is only accessible to a small number of people, but the fact remains that they shouldn't have been put there in the first place without prior permission.

Regardless of whether you are making the skins available to 8 or 800 people, you are still redistributing copyrighted materials illegally. If you required some example skins for use during development of your application, then you should have either sought permission first from the relevant authors or made your own temporary skins for the purposes of development.

I have my suspicions that the skin files you are currently using are actually a redistribution of a previous illegal package of skins for use with Visual Basic applications which was discovered for sale a few months ago, and which was subsequently removed from the developer's site after warnings. If this is the case, then it's possible that you were mislead yourself into thinking these skins were fine to use for your own purposes.

The other skin authors concerned have been contacted, and you should expect to hear from them soon. I also note that you still have these files available to download from your site even though you have been asked to remove them. It is somewhat irrelevant that the page in question isn't linked to from your main site, as search engines will index the page anyway, making it accessible to many more people than you are perhaps aware of.

I am somewhat grateful that you chose to reply and give a full explanation of what has happened, and I hope that you will rectify the situation sooner rather than later. I am sorry that I cannot allow you to continue to use my work in this manner, and regret that I will not be granting permission any time soon to do so.

Regards,

Kevin Purcell
grayhaze.com

He still has the skins available for download from his site. Let's hope he cooperates this time.

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§tatic >> If he had simply created the 'ports' for his own private use when developing the application, then I would tend to agree. However, the fact that he has them available to download from a publically accessible web page makes things somewhat more complicated.

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CerebroJD

Join Date 01/2003

I believe him. It seems to be an honest misunderstanding.

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It's all very well believing him, as I do too to some extent, but the fact remains that he's ignored the removal request so far. That makes me a little less likely to sway into sympathy for him. If he's telling the truth, then I would expect those files to be removed already. I'm giving him a day or so more to comply with my wishes before I take it any further.

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Grayhaze you are correct in your belief. You can never be wrong in deciding what to do with your own creations. I am not in a position to suggest your wrong. After all those skins were not created by me. I just think his explanation was reasonable and genuine, and I believe if any of my designs were there I would give him permission.

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I have to say I also believe him, I don't think that 8 people is public, public is it when evryone can reach it.

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As I said already Styl skinner, whether it's 8 people or 800, it's still copyright infringment and illegal redistribution.

The web page from which you can download the skins isn't even protected in any way, through the use of password protection or any other security, so regardless of how many people officially have access to the page there's nothing to stop anyone else from downloading the files. It's therefore considered public redistribution.

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I have to say, this air of unquestioning tolerance that's started to creep into situations like this is somewhat concerning. What's the point in fighting to protect copyrights for all when there are those amongst us who don't seem to give a damn in the first place? Perhaps you can only have a realistic perspective once your own work has been stolen, or perhaps people just don't care anymore. A sorry state of affairs either way.

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I recieved the very same email.

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His final response:

Kevin,

The skins have been deleted from my site and, of course, I won't use yours
on my application. Please accept my apologies. And, not, I am not using a
Visual Basic package, the program has been made in Delphi.

If you should reconsider your position, please let me know it.

I am very sorry if I have annoy you. Be sure that it was not my intention.

Regards,

- Manuel Oñate

and mine:

Manuel,

Thank you for your cooperation in this situation. I apologise for any appearance of an overly heavy-handed approach, but as I'm sure you understand copyright is something very important to myself as a digital artist.

Regards,

Kevin Purcell
grayhaze.com

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