joetheblow

Join Date 12/2001

Sooooo, you want to know about the tax cuts huh?

http://www.msnbc.com/news/905824.asp?0si=-

What do you guys think about the tax cut? Is it worth it?

Also, since I can't find the "US going to war tomarrow, dang" thread, I left of with the feeling of wondering why 3% of the population has 80% of the money.

While it is true that buying 20 luxury cars provides jobs, and buying 10 would mean someone does not have a job anymore, my therory goes is that there would be more money in the hands of the rest of the population and easier to gewt another job paying a supirior wage.

So instead of working a Bently USA, you work as a bike messenger... at 8 dollars a package and 10 dollars minimum wage a hour.

I guess it is not really a therory since I have not tested it. Or come up with any factuall data or charts for it (guess what my thesis will be on???

), but I am hoping to start a debate on the subject....

artists have opinions too!
lets get our heads out of the painting shall we?

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Gee Phil..by the response you got that 3% must be on this site

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"my therory goes is that there would be more money in the hands of the rest of the population and easier to gewt another job paying a supirior wage"

Defeating the tax cut would take money from the hands of public America, and would continue feeding a bloated, rotten bureaucracy, drowning in its own waste. "Public Service" has become a modern Works Progress Administration for those who want to live comfortably in the bowels of the aforementioned corpse. In rural Appalachia where I am from, there isn't a much better hope than to get a nice, easy government job. 60 years ago, those same folks were paid to build 'roads to nowhere'. Different times, same job.

In my state I pay both federal and state income tax, and we have a lottery that was legalized under the sole pretense of generating income for Education. Almost every local utility bill I pay also has some sort of school tax attached. Now, our state is one of the loudest, whining messes in the nation. Where, do you think, does all that money go?

Tax breaks for the rich? Hardly. It is rotting with the remains of "Public Service". We pay enough to educate the children of our nation dozens of times over, yet the money passes from hand to hand, losing a tithe each time. Do you really think that more taxes would ensure more money getting through? Only enough to *barely* do the job will ever get through, and anything more is profit for those who pass the money around. That is economic law.

I would much rather trust in the greed of the rich than the honesty of government. At least the ultra-wealthy spend their wealth on the homes, cars, and other luxury products that the lower classes are employed to produce. If we send it to Washington, it will only be used to perpetuate a broken system.

There has recently been a series of commercials about how drugs fund terrorism. Though I risk associating myself with some of DavidK's wilder hypotheses, I believe devoutly that more US tax money ends up in the hands of terrorists than drug money. I would much prefer seeing the wealthy buy another Bentley than seeing Jordan or North Korea funnel a penny of my tax money to those who murder innocents.

**

Since the perception is that the messageboard has taken an antagonistic tone of late, I'll abstain from further comment. I've said what I think, and feel free to rebut, but I don't intend to answer further.

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it will take me a while to read this.

I'm sleepy. I need my 1.5 hours of sleep so I can finish 4 more chapters of Economics and write a business memo on whether or not to invest in the Electicity market.

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But hasn't history shown that ultra rich is less trust worth than the goverment?

Monolpolies and the idea that the lower classes can make the products while we buy sounds kinda... well bad. Almost a perpetual state of drones getting enough pay to come back tomorrow to work again.

I believe that any economy existant depends on the socail welfare of all of society.

Yes, I strongly believe goverment spending is rediculous. But its that same money that eventually pays for something. Heath care, weapons, highways, trash collection... and so on. Civil servents don't get paid cheese and crackers.

wait.... I really need some sleep.

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The 3% are enslaving the rest of us, the money was long since gone before Enron and the rest got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

It won't be long and all books will be banned. Public Libraries are being extorted to ban books and as a result are losing funding if they do not comply.

Information will soon be available to only those who can afford it.

Minimum wage is now a reality to middle class, forcing one to earn what is needed to continue working, but suppling nothing else.

Higher education is for the wealthy unless one chooses to go into debt for the rest of their lives, but is no gaurantee that you will find work.

Military service is now an oasis for those who discovered this truth, but at what cost?

The "News" we recieve is little more than propaganda and President Bush declared at the start that this would be the case in "Order to protect our military oversees"

Operation Iraqi Freedom I believe is the "Calm before the Storm"

The Armed United Nations is joining forces with Russia and is already moving into the Middle East.

The Armies of the world are beginning to amass on what is known as the "Plains of Armeggedon".

Now we wait and see.

For me, I live by Faith as there is nothing else I have.

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Also keep in mind the top 5% pay 60% of the taxes.

another look; 96 dollars out of every 100 paid in by taxes is paid by the top 50% of wage earners.

Yes, it would be nice to see the wealth spread out, but every time you tamper with that, you tamper with socialism. I will not take part in anything that resembles socialism for I, and only I, have the right to decide my fate. It's impossible to deny, if you work your ass off and get a little luck you can make it into that top 10%, ultimately paying most everyone's taxes for them, including the homeless' bills, welfare support you can't get, and what else. People say the American dream is almost impossible to achieve now days, but that's simply because it's almost impossible to find people willing to work as hard to achieve success as there were years ago.

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A simpler way to look at it is, no poor person ever offered me a job.

Also, its not what the rich buy, its what they invest. Without investment businesses can't expand.

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I don't know about 3% enslaving us hypothesis. Its not like we work and don't get paid for it or that there is no chance for an increase in pay.

For me, I just feel that, while there can be millionaires, and many of them, there is a point where it becomes ridiculous. Yes of course they pay most of the taxes that fund allot of government programs and the like, but from what I know of math, if the money was more spread out, the government still would get a rather large amount of money, just from more sources.

Also people would feel more wealthy because they are not getting 9 dollars an hour but 15.

Then there is those corporate leaders who get paid astronomical numbers (whether they do well or not) when in reality it is the managers and workers who help make the business what it is. They are the ones meeting the public everyday and doing there piece of work.

People can still be rich. Very rich for that matter. Not super rich. I think that works against society as a whole. As economics goes, the main believe in this system is that there has to be a equivalent amount of good for everyone and good for the society as a whole to work economically.

I am just learning this stuff as part of some classes I decided to take. One thing I can really agree with is that most people are economically illiterate. Most people do not know how it works or why and its theories or principals and laws (that includes me)

Most decisions made in any country has to do with money. Most voters have no clue as to how the economy works and why or how certain decisions will effect them in the short term or the long term.

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not rich bashing... especially since I feel I am a hard working person and on my way to being *quote* rich myself

I just think there is a point where a person who is super rich (1 billion and 1 dollar or more) is ludicrous. Paying more taxes, hiring more people, buying luxury good only become a way of keeping the status quo of power. At that level some of what you spend usually is a investment because of the amount. Super luxury goods are more an investment than a product good or a normal luxury item.

Now if that person were to increase the amount she pays her employees, hire workers and pay more than the norm. Give in a smart fashion, like for education for poor, business education, charity that helps those in need to get better, not just coming back for more because they are just as poor yesterday as they are today.

The funny thing about what I am proposing is that these type of investments would probably make the person technically rich or richer because of a better environment for employees and others in the society at large. Better educated workers, more entrepreneurial citizens with ideas, more people being able to spend money back into the economy....

just a hypothesis...

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Since this isn't getting out of hand, I'll make one more note.

The average person around the world thinks that the salaries of average americans are out of hand. The average millionaire probably thinks the income of the average billionaire is out of hand. Who's idea of wealthy are you gonna go by? If it were left to the average world citizen's standards, most of us would be paying high taxes.

If the issue is how much money people make, then make a legal limit on income, instead of indirectly punishing them by *stealing* 60%+ of the money they make. The issue here isn't whether the money should be accumulated, it is whether the *government* has the right to forcibly take it away from people.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Okay, I don't think this will come as a shock but I'm in that upper 3%.

So let's pick on me, shall we?

First, I am against the dividend tax cut. I am against tax cuts for idle wealth. If you want to stimulate the economy the best way, IMO is to cut the payroll tax and lower taxes on corporations.

Let me give you an example: Stardock. The guys who own this site. If we make $49,999 in profit this year, we're taxed at 15%. At $50,000, it goes up to 25%. As a result, all sorts of idiotic short term accounting nonsense is done to avoid that massive jump in taxes. If they changed this so that it was 15% to 20% to 25%, it wouldn't be such a bear and we could afford to sock away more for long term planning.

Now, getting back to evil "Rich" guys like me. What do you think I do with a tax cut? You think I buy cars? No, I invest it. I invest it in new ventures. I save it for my kid's college. I buy the kinds of things other people buy. But most importantly, the more I get to keep, the more incentive I have to work hard. When I work hard, it creates jobs. How many jobs have my efforts over the years created would you say?

Without the incentive to work hard, there'd be no WinCustomize in the first place to bash "rich people".

Now let's talk about greedy corporations. What would Stardock do if it didn't have to pay so much in taxes? It would hire more people.

At the end of the day, you have to ask where that tax money goes and whether it is better handled than being in the hands of us 3%. And remember, half the population is basically paying all the taxes. The top 5% pay half the taxes.

60% of the government tax money is spent taking money from the top 3% of people and handing it out to individuals. Mostly elderly individuals. A good chunk of that is medicaid, medicare, and social security. There are also other welfare programs. 15% is spent on Defense, another 15% is spent on interest on the debt. The other 10% left over pays for things like federal employee retirement, foreign aid, education, etc.

But let's put a human face on us slavers. I'm one of them. Adn I work my ass off. But it's not just that, the work I do creates jobs. God bless the guy who works on an assembly line or the hard working police officer or the dedicated teacher. But their actions don't directly translate into economic growth. The closer you are to the creation of economic growth and opportunity, the more income you are likely to make. And most of us evil top 3%ers are not greedy.

Ask anyone at Stardock and they'll tell you I'm definitely not in it for the money. I have a blast doing what I'm doing and if I wanted to could definitely make more (the game I designed, Galactic Civilizations, is at stores worldwide. Took now borrowed money to write it, and has been in the top 10 sellers on Amazon.com's charts for awhile, it's grossed well into the 7 digit range in the first 3 weeks of release). You won't see taking the proceeds from our products and buying a boat or a fancy car. Instead, that money goes back into Stardock. To invest in the creation of new jobs, new projects, new products, etc.

And I'm not the exception. I'm typcal. If you took a survey of the top 5% it's largely made up of business owners who have worked hard to get there.

I'm definitely in favor of tax cuts. FAIR tax cuts. That means tax cuts for EVERYONE. But I definitely don't buy the idea that the government spends the money it takes from me better than I would have spent it. Give me back the tens of thousands of dollars I've been taxed and I'd use it to hire more people, plan a better future for my family, donate more to charity, and yes, spending it on stuff I like (I'd love to buy some property nearby to turn into a wetland preserve, there is a reason I'm called "Frogboy" after all...

)

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I couldn't agree more, Frogboy. After all, who creates more jobs - the government or the business owners?
I thought the original tax cut idea was close to fair. Every tax bracket was to be reduced by 3%. Granted the higher brackets were getting less of a reduction as a percentage of the whole than the lower brackets but as I say close to even across the board.

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If I could only speak what's on my mind the way Frogboy just did, I wouldn't need porn... I could just start talking to myself

what do my friend's parents do with a tax cut? buy a TV.
what does the leader of a mjor corporation do with it? invest it.
(sorry, that was a sad attempt to sum up froggy

)

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

That's the thing that many people don't realize in looking at what "rich" people do and everyone else.

Some things don't scale. When you get to a certain level of wealth, you do't just keep buying more/bigger on everything. Sure, there will be a certain amount of that but at a certain level you start doing fundamentally different things.

Let's say you make a million dollars, of which around $400,000 will end up in taxes of various types. After you've bought your usual stuff, TV, home electronics, a nicer car, nicer house at some point what do you do with the rest? You invest it.

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YES

In some ways Frogboy that is excatly what I am saying.

One of my points is that once you have a certain amount of money, it is far, far easier to live and reinvest it in your life style

For example, I am a MultiMillion, closing in on the billion mark.

I buy a Bently. That Bently, with all the trim, costs 300,000.

Guess what? That is also a investment with a return better than the average joe buying a Accord.

The Bently after 10 years retains HALF of its market value. Aslo depending on other issues, it culd be worth more than when you bought it.

Not true with a Honda Accord. The Honda Accord will be worth scrap. Scrap value (250.oo USD) is not anywhere near 150,000.

Also keep in mind what a bank sees in a MultiMillionaire.

The govenment takes 60% of the income. so insted of 5 hundred million, she gets 200 million ( I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be crying over losing hlaf of my money when I can still buy most things to keep me very well kept... so I'll cry in my 4 bedroom townhouse)

You know what a bank sees? A person worht 500 Million dollars. Not 200 Million. In other words at that level this person can borrow way more than you or I. And also at that level she can buy things that in allot of ways becomes an investment rather than just an expence.

So when that Multi-millionaire is buying that yatch, she is helping herself much more *not to much more, but reconize the fact that it does help them more than the worker) than helping the 15 dollar an hour worker.

Now, if the Multi-Millionaire reinvests in the company, tax right off, if she raises pay for her workers, she earns less but she is still a millionaire and is directly helping her employess to live better lives and pumping money into a part of the economy (Non - luxury goods, sub goods, complementry goods, perishabale goods and so on that companies sell) that will most likely end up back in her hands as better performance from employees and a better economy before the year is out.

To sum it up, when you reach a certain level, the money can easiely regenerrate itself. If your a multi-millionaire today, most likely you will be one tommorrow.. and next year, unless you do something really bad, or make a major mistake.

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although I think the divident tax cut would be nice....

and while your at it, don't double tax for social securtity.

they tax you for gross income then after they tax you they take out the SS money.

Then when you get the money later on in life, in your old age, you find your 20,000 or less a year gets taxed... again.

not cool.

also I do believe the money is better in the hands of people. the goverment thinks so to otherwise it would not be called free enterprise. By definition that uis what it is. The idea of the perfect market and no goverment intervention problably will never happen (can you imagine NYC subway system being paid for by a corporation

yeah right. But notice that many corporations depend on the goverment to pay for it.)

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also helping out corporations with health care coverage would be nice... but guess what? that comes out of tax money.

I don't know of that many wealthy people who would pay for their competitions health coverage if they had to.

but it is necessary for the economy and the social welfare of the country. (social welfare in economic terms in not bad)

Become economically literate! Visit Google today and find out more about how the economy works and how it effects you and politics where you live.

http://www.google.com

not sponsoring Google, there are other web search engines to go to.

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In need to spell check more often.

help corporations reinvest in themselves. Help individuals reinvest in their corporations, create new entrepreneurial spark in the economy for new jobs (better paying) and let them help themselves to a degree by buying those super luxury goods.

Notice I am talking about Multimillion dollar citizens, not 100 thousand or 500 thousand.

I think my economics class is really getting to me.

see ya this weekend.

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