Some very good points.

Just to be clear Im quite happy with OD. The strides that have been made since 3x are pretty amazing in both stability and performance.

Please bear in mind this isnt "bitching" it's a conversation that can hopefully benefit all involved in the long run, or not The basis of the conversation leads one to sound "whiney".

One key point is this isnt "required" software and as such I really dont need to go elsewhere. I've looked at plain Windows since EZDOSIT .

Mitch

Well I must say money has now become the motivator for the developers and the skinners alike. This little bit of news could easily be seen as warning that the cost of Object Desktop and the individual software components are about to have a price increase. It’s not hard to see Star dock charging 50 dollars for Windowblinds, DesktopX, Icon packager, etc. etc and 100 to 200 dollars for the Object Desktop Suite.

I have to say that the community is changing. Since customizing the GUI has become more main-stream, not only the price will change but the community as well. Since the main goal of “wondering how much everyone will like this” to “wonder how much money I can make from this” will cause the attitudes of all the end-users to change with it. Maybe this is where this type of community is headed. Maybe all the communities in the tech-world make this transition and maybe the customizing community is finally making its way to join the rest.

I have to say Wincustomize has sped this along with the implementation of the master Skinner project. Before the MSP (master skinner project) came along Wincustomize was a portal for all skinners to share their art. And quite possible allow a skinner to offer services by advertising their talents. And if a skinner was so inclined he/she could say “visit my web page for some more of my work”, but now that is no longer necessary. Because WC has become a selling point for their products, which I think pulls away from the true nature of WC and that is for people to share their stuff. Some artist have only offered their good stuff (the worth using stuff) for a price. Don’t get me wrong I have supported a few artists for their work. But I think that it shows that we are at a point where the community has made it to a point and changed the community forever. Money is now the motivator to offer good software and great skins. I think you will be lucky to find a great skin being offered by the so called Masters for the sake of sharing.



True and not true, I'm not asking for free, but this community has always been about sharing, and that is slowing changing. And with that change comes the change of attitude with the users and artist and the devs. With the need to exchange money for all this will change this community to being more inpersonal



I agree, I like being the guinea pig, it made me feel more like a part of the community. A great satisfaction comes from discovering bugs and then someone fixing them.



True, but what gets me is that some artist only offer the great stuff for cash and the rest is stuff you would be lucky to find a fit. Again I support it but, it seems now money has become the reason to make great skins not because they want others to say "wow” There is an artist that seems to make only Master skins. Since the master program began what percent of your skins to you offer for free compared to price.


As far as paying for what Stardock charges for their products, I have no problem paying these fees. Improvements will come, though I have to agree with some of the argument, that some of the bugs do get resolved rather slowly. I personally don't have issue with bugs, but read the forums and you see some old bugs that haven’t been dealt the needed hand and should have. But this part of software development. And do not forget that development is a permanent fixture.




If it wasn't for Community Content, you wouldn't be here.

To put this into a nutshell, the fact is that the community is changing and i have to say not for the best. The community will eventually fade out because the customization of desktop will become main-stream. This is how it goes.

I could list a dozen or so issues right off the bat without even thinking, some have been posted.. some have been posted numerous times.. and some.. I'm not even going to bother with because the last ones I did.. were never remedied. I've tried giving detailed feedback.. to limited avail. I'm not the only one.

I understand that as time passes some are of the opinion that software needs to be given new and exciting functions to keep attracting new and repeat buyers.. I for one don't subscribe to that. My feelings would be to stop trying to add to a program that has problems going back years and tend to these issues. Then and only then would I add new features. I believe that people are far more likely to pay and repeat buy software that at it's core is completely functional.

I would be more than happy to fully test on an ongoing basis if the work i put into it.. paid off.

I wish Stardock the best as the future draws closer and I hope and pray that it all shakes out in a positive manner.

Umm, Frogboy ... some of your support guys may not be telling you everything

But, from the looks of it, Alberto (and team) is working on these known issues.

Ahhhmen V.  

A couple of points for those still following...

There seems to be a misconception of betas around here...Stardock has 2 kinds.Pre-full release betas for community testing(true betas)...and bugfix betas(the more numerous beta)to sort out issues.

To the Masterskin program dissenters...Heres some numbers for you...In 2007 I produced over 80 skins(not just windowblinds,but still skins...that took time and effort).Only 2 of them for sale...out of over 80.  

I contributed for years before 2007,but apparently nothing I did beore my first skin for sale has any merit.  (or any of the free skins afterwards)  

So for 5 years of skinning I have pulled in a grand total of just over 1000$Not enough to cover the effort of creating a single WB.So your whining falls on deaf ears here.  

Slider was released with a demo...it got 1 comment I think.    

My personal best skin,my favourite...was free.  

Charge people extra for betas?Bugfixes too?...sorry,thats not gonna work...seems to be the exact opposite of what Brads point is.  

Yes but the cost of development has gone up. (People like a cost of living raise occasionally), and the price of the software hasn't.. In reality most other companies push the rising costs of business on to the customer. This has not been the case with SD.
We have more than gotten our moneys worth, in the fact of while content has risen (tho at a slower pace lately) and development is still ongoing, the prices have not been raised .. EVER. We have been very lucky up to this point on that fact alone..

IMO SD may have to raise prices to bring on paid skinners to fill the gaps left by the declining #'s of active skinners and contributions.


Not to mention all the griping threads with no real explanations of whats not working, tends to be a pain and offers support no real way of helping.

Why would that make you impatient? Wasn't part of this about not enough good feedback? When you give feedback..ask for fixes and nothing is done.. what's the motivation to keep reporting? I doub't many people would like to see WB the best it can be more than I.. seriously. Not sure what you meant by that.

Brad,

I think you're spot on with the content direction and master skinners along with MyColors are great examples of the direction things are heading.

As for the content complaints they seem to be atypical of many other markets such as music, books, etc. As the skinning market gets bigger obviously the number of active, quality skinners is going to decline.

People need to step back and think for a second how much a graphics designer is actually worth. And that's only one aspect of the process.

My participation in beta testing for DesktopX has been limited due to my being on XP and any issue I have had is system specific.

Also, my eyes were opened by the amount of time spent dealing with people on my iReflector gadget. These same issue(s) which were documented in the readme file that everyone decides not to read. At deviantart I got around 50 notes that it "doesn't work" and the answer was in the description.

So, I have to pat everyone at Stardock on the back. Mind if I ask "does customer service and tech support have padded cubicles?

Just a couple thoughts here.

I'm fairly new to the community so I'm sure there are plenty of problems and changes from the past of this community that I am unaware of. From what I've seen in the time I've been browsing through Wincustomize though I think this is the best developer and user integrated relationship I've seen with any product. Unfortunately though no matter what is done from either side of the relationship there will always be problems. Human nature is unavoidable.

As for the beta tester process I would also disagree that charging people extra to be beta testers would be a good idea (referring to a comment made not the original article). At the same time I'm sure people would appreciate a discount on products for being testers but unfortunately that would lead to everyone saying they are willing to be beta testers just to get the discount and then giving the same uninformed comments about their problems.

I would think that with the new Impulse that is on the way maybe it would be a good idea to have the normal section for updates that you have in Stardock Central but have it provide only full release updates. In addition to this add a seperate section in which people can sign up and download beta versions to test. In this section you could include a detailed description of what is expected of beta testers as far as content of reported problems (i.e. "This thing isnt working it's crap" wouldnt be useful information and the people submitting these types of "reports" would lose the ability to access the beta versions.

In addition to this I believe a helpful thing would be to change the Forum front page layout a bit. No matter what you will always get people that just want to complain, or people with valid remarks that just wont pay attention to the proper place for their comments. I think if the front page was changed so that when you first clicked the forum button you then had the options of "Beta Forums", "Stardock Support Forums", "All Other Forums"(which would lead to a page similar to what the front page is now) then you would at least have a better chance of these problems being reported in the correct place rather than spread out among the forums.

Of course making sure these problems are fixed in a timely manner or at least acknowledged and updates given on the progress of fixing them would also be an important factor. From what i see (in this thread) I would think that the people who have mentioned the problems they posted about not being fixed are not people that are complaining just to cause problems but people who are pointing this out in hopes of the problems being fixed because they put alot of time into the skins they create and want to see them perform to the best of their ability. Which of course is good not just for them but for the fact that it means more great skins out there working properly to encourage people to purchase Stardocks products.


As for people complaining about the price of Stardocks products or about paying for Master Skins, I really dont see any merit to the complaints. Stardocks products are very moderately priced for what you get out of them and you make the choice to buy them to begin with. Be sure to consider the fact that if you were to buy ObjectDesktop now and never renew your subscription that it will still work for life and there are so many skins already out there to choose from that you could change your computer theme a couple times a month for years to come. The Master Skins are made by people who take alot of time and make sure they are producing a great product. And as for the prices of the skins how can anyone complain? You pay a small fee for the skin, about the same as youd pay for a single meal for one at a drive thru, and you have it for life not just ten minutes. Also even if you do not want to pay for the Master Skins there are so many great free skins out there by these same people and others that you have alot of stuff to choose from.

As far as rating systems and comments on skins.
There will always be people who do this just to be able to make something and will continue to do it regardless of the ratings they get and there will also always be people who take the ratings to heart. In my personal opinion the ratings arent a big deal. If you really want to judge peoples opinion of your skin then read the comments that are left. I agree it would be nice if more people left comments when they do like your work because it will encourage more people to keep trying to do a better job. Another way to look at it is by the number of downloads you get. As far as the negative comments left on skins the only way you'll ever be able to put a complete end to that is to get rid of the comment section altogether as there will always be people out there who just have to be malicious. By negative I dont mean someone telling you they dont really like the end product and telling you why, I mean people just leaving completely unnecessary comments. I think doing away with comments altogether would create a slow demise of people creating things because then they would never get any positive feedback or appreciation of their work.

I really don't think most people are talking about that level of customization, when you talk about casual users I think most people would just like a different color to choose from, maybe with some racing stripes. Not that the car comparison, or any other is a very good comparison when we are talking about software.



Well confusion here is part of the issue, however at the end of the day it comes down to value perceived by the customer, regardless of who owns the content. As master skinners and Stardock alike sell their products to the customer, it really doesn't matter what they perceive as value but what the people who buy their products perceive as value. IMHO, understanding that simple fact is key to running any business. If you can't cover costs with what the customer feels is a good value proposition, then the business won't last very long.
...Unless of course, you are Microsoft.



Once you have as much of a grip on the market as Microsoft does, you can get away with A LOT. I wonder how much Plus actually sold, not that it matters to Microsoft that much. There may be few complaints because not many people bought it, or perhaps because complaining to Microsoft is not very... productive. Unless it is some kind of serious security flaw, you are not likely to see a fix from Microsoft anytime soon and people kind of give up before getting started. But there are not many companies who can play by Microsoft's rules and survive. Still if Stardock could get Microsoft to let them sell using the Plus brand, it would make the brand actually worth something again. I imagine it work out pretty good for Stardock too.


Totally off topic, who at Stardock is the Raymond E. Feist fan, or is just coincidence?

Here we go again with the whining. Not sure if those ALL CAPS were pointed at my comment about the word "WHINE" being one of my pet peeves, but I'll bite.

The only here that sound like they are whining is you, and whether or not you can make a successful go of your career choice is of no particular concern to anybody but yourself. Maybe you could do better if you stopped calling your potential customers a bunch of whiners, just a thought though. Maybe if people could listen to those they disagree with, they could find common ground and a mutually beneficial middle ground could be reached. But when you start calling potential customers names, well I wouldn't expect business to take off.