Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Research for: Is Skinning getting too hard?

Preliminaries

I'm working on an article on the above topic.

Is it getting too hard for people to get into skinning?

Consider these items:

To make icons for Windows Vista now requires the icon author to invest in making 256x256 icons. When Windows 3.1 came out, 32x32 was the largest sized icon. A 256x256 icon has about as many pixels as a screenshot of a full-screen DOS VGA game did.
Windows Media Player is incredibly complicated to skin for and the media player market is very fragmented. I use iTunes myself which isn't even skinnable. So there's a lot of work to make skins but the skinnable media player market has dramatically shrunk from the Winamp glory days.
Making a GUI skin that looks as good or better than Vista Aero is very difficult now. When skinning first took off, it was Windows classic which looks like crap. And so even if you were just skinning the title bar and borders, it was still a lot better than what you started with.

So what do you think this means and what could be done? I have some opinions on this but I'd like to hear what you guys think first.

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ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

Windows Media Player is incredibly complicated to skin for and the media player market is very fragmented. I use iTunes myself which isn't even skinnable. So there's a lot of work to make skins but the skinnable media player market has dramatically shrunk from the Winamp glory days.

One word: Xion

From what i see here on these forums . . much of the difficulty and time is spent on the mechanics of skinning now; not the concept or artwork.

I'll shut up now and let the real artists answer.

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I.R. Brainiac

Join Date 05/2003

+281

Making a GUI skin that looks as good or better than Vista Aero

You've had artist right here doing better werk than that for years.Looks like it was designed by committee .Window frames dont even match the start menu and taskbar.

Skinning Vista is discouraging since MS dumbed down the interface(and made it harder to use).Many of the elements that make XP look so good are not even used.So now you have to invest time into a lesser version of your skin to appease Vista users.

Xion is a blast and it does what I need...play music and look pretty.

Icons scare me but someday the challenge will become irresistable.

Skinning isnt so much harder as it is more time consuming now.You may start to see more and more specialising.Groups of artist who werk together each at what they do best.A complete suite of skins for 1 artist is quite an undertaking.

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Icons scare me but someday the challenge will become irresistable

I.R. Brainiac doing icons

at least the size will be limited by the OS

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

Is it getting too hard for people to get into skinning?

Generally speaking, Yes.

The skinning/skinnable GUI is more extensive so it's more time-consuming.

And...

There can even be a perception with those thinking of starting.....that they are way behind the Eight Ball when compared with those who are already doing it...and/or have been doing it for yonks.

There isn't even a 'Skinning for Dummies' publication that can entice the casual interested party into taking things further. [though maybe the Wiki will help there]...

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So maybe this is the dumbest question from the dumb old blond, why go to vista if you already love what you have? I went to xp, hated it for years. I went to computer school in 1985, talk about dumbed down....3.1 was it baby....98 worked and worked well. The improvement made with xp? Alot of dumb #*@?+$!!!. But what could microsoft do? I watch those MAC commercials and wonder but I have no clue, everyone had something that had windows in it. I never knew anyone who had a MAC. Would like to try one for a bit? But anyway, back to Vista. I don't think I care at this time to jump ship from my xp. As my great computer wiz uncle in the sky said, never jump ship unless the ship is sinking and water reaches your nose, then dam# it stay on the ship till you see the sharks are out of the water. The fixes to xp amount to tons. Wait a while till the Vista really works like it should, or does it, not what I have heard or read yet really. Skinning a problem, what would it do to microsoft if it didn't have any takers for Vista? Doesn't anyone think like this but me? Upgrade your computer with better and faster stuff and stick with what you have, unless you think Vista is the great and powerful wizard (OZ) but just don't click your heals and yell; Kansas might be out of reach for a long,long,long time. mschleisner

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Join Date 03/2001

+23

Indeed it has become very complex. I remember 1.x windowblinds days when I can make a skin in days. Not a great skin, but nevertheless a skin.

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BoXXi

Join Date 03/2001

+393

I think the biggest step forward in skinning for years is Xion. All other developers of skinnable apps and skinning programs should be viewing it with envious eyes.
What surprises me though is, if one man on his own can write this skinning system, why haven't companies like Stardock come up with something similar, and, having seen it are they now considering applying this method to their own products? I'm not a technical person by any means, so I don't know if it's possible to apply that system to other programs. It would be interesting Brad, to hear what your views are on that.

Personally, I'm just hoping that the forthcoming Skinstudio is easier to use, and that what you see in the preview area is more representative of what happens when you apply the skin.

But, at the moment, I'm just having fun skinning Xion. It's great to go into my folder of images that I have created over the last 7 or 8 years and see which creations I can use as a Xion interface, and then just rename the layers and have a finished skin in no time at all.

I think the most important word I have used in the paragraphs above is "Fun". If skinning DOES get harder, then people will only want to do it for money, instead of a hobby.

Long live the Xion skinning system!!

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Fairyy~

Join Date 02/2004

+49

There isn't even a 'Skinning for Dummies' publication that can entice the casual interested party into taking things further. [though maybe the Wiki will help there].

I always thought there could be a way to simplify skinning a windowblind. Why not include a demo windowblind that can be 'reskinned' piece by piece so that a new skinner can become familar with the parts of a blind without having to try to read the ' how to ' as they attempt a first blind. Then as they become more familar with the margins and stretching etc , they can venture out to more elaborate designs.

As for Xion...its only one application and your all treating it like its the next coming of Christ. I'm already getting bored with it. ( So sue me )

To answer your question, it would appear from the lack of interest in skinning that it has become too time consuming...I recall a few years back when there were at least 3 windowblind skins a day released. Now, its barely that a week...

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c242

Join Date 03/2001

+382

As for Xion...its only one application and your all treating it like its the next coming of Christ. I'm already getting bored with it. ( So sue me )

Well, nothing personal, but did You really understand what is so special about it compared to other skinnable apps ?

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Fairyy~

Join Date 02/2004

+49

Well, nothing personal, but did You really understand what is so special about it compared to other skinnable apps ?

Yes...its way easier to skin and accepts the psd files...( although I still don't love the unskinned playlist ) I understand your enthusiasm..but lets not forget other applications in the meantime. That was my point.

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Alternate Setting

Join Date 03/2004

+24

There are some great 'how to' videos by "pumakitten" over at skinartistry.com.

Heartily recommended for those who can't quite get to grips with skinstudio and need that extra access point.

They're to be found in the member's only section, so you'll have to register. Then head to: Downloads > Members Only > Tutorial Files.

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Quentin94

Join Date 08/2006

+119

Then as they become more familar with the margins and stretching etc , they can venture out to more elaborate designs.

I became familiar with that i using ObjectBar and RightClick

just a tought maybe we'll see more skins for OB2

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Fairyy~

Join Date 02/2004

+49

I became familiar with that i using ObjectBar and RightClick

Your right - I learned a lot making RC skins...

A simple RC skin can be made using the skin tool that comes with the program but the 'good' stuff comes when you understand all that garbage in the ini pad and you use Skin Studio to move the margins so you can add graphics to the menu. But , without buzzh58 to actually show me step by step how to do this I would still be using the skin tool Which only makes simple skins..

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Quentin94

Join Date 08/2006

+119

Yes i understand and SKS could give you some fear the first time you open it
(thought for me it wasn't the code the highest problems but the graphics

)

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Lantec

Join Date 07/2003

+346

Night Train made a demo blind like your referring to. I think it's still in the Skinartistry Library.

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Fairyy~

Join Date 02/2004

+49

Night Train made a demo blind like your referring to. I think it's still in the Skinartistry Library.

I kinda figured he had something in that line , I know he helped a lot of people with skinning questions. But I was referring to something that would come with Skin Studio...a step by step skin-a-blind guide.

Sometimes more people are able to grasp a concept if they run through an actual procedure than read a tutorial.

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Alternate Setting

Join Date 03/2004

+24

Maybe Brad could take a look at the video referred to in my previous post (#11).

It's just one of a set and pretty much does as Fairyy~ describes, running through aspects of skinning in a step by step guide.

I'm not sure if there's any good reason why this level of introduction couldn't be produced/hosted by Stardock or Wincustomize ?

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I.R. Brainiac

Join Date 05/2003

+281

Xions skinning format is perfect for media players but a windowblind is a different kind of beast.SKS is actually a great program,just needs tweaking.I dont think I would want to include all the neccessary info for a blind in a psd.(margins,text settings,tiling etc...)I NEED the interface and all its many checkboxes,settings and abilities.

Tho...the ability to open a psd in SKS and select or cut layers would be very cool.

Any static application...media player skins,widgets,sysmetrix,rainy,etc... would benefit greatly from Xions method.

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I went to computer school in 1985, talk about dumbed down....3.1 was it baby....98 worked and worked well.

Did you ever play with 2000 Pro? I'd have to say that personally that's my number 1 O/S. I still recommend/install it on older computers that need better performance.

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messiah1

Join Date 10/2005

+434

I use iTunes myself which isn't even skinnable.

iTunes IS skinnable. Go check out the iTunes library at deviantArt. There are tons of skins for iTunes in there. You have to have a program called multi-plugin for iTunes (free) to install the skins. And it isn't that hard to skin it.

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I went to computer school in 1985, talk about dumbed down....3.1 was it baby....98 worked and worked well.

Did you ever play with 2000 Pro? I'd have to say that personally that's my number 1 O/S. I still recommend/install it on older computers that need better performance.

No, Started with the TRASH (trs-80) haha, then got my first real computer from my uncle who built it with windows 95, then upgraded to 98 and then xp. He was not happy that I was upgrading that fast.

I really think I can live with xp for the next few years without any reason to change, but it's because microsoft doesn't seem to care about what they are putting out there. When they talked and Longhorn was about to bloom I was looking with rose colored glasses, hoping for the best, then vista. Longhorn might have been the best thing to do for financial reasons but it must not have worked and they went on to create vista. They were coming out with a new system every couple years and people waited for vista a good while. Microsoft lost most of us in the dust and those who know will wait until something of value comes down the pike, or change to Lunix or whatever keeps us happy for now. Those who decide to buy new computers will end up with vista and learn how to tweak it, I just won't. Thanks, sometime I just talk to much, sorry. mschleisner

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Well, I've had an idea floating around in my head that I think would make it easier and fun for beginners to skin. What if in SKS, or even a separate app, for each GUI element you had a drop down list of pre-made graphics with the ability to control the hue, tranparency, contrast, etc. For example, you open up the brand new "Skin Wizard" utility that comes with SKS. An option comes up asking you "Chose the type of window boarders" Then of course 'Change color' and 'Change transparency' or maybe even 'import custom graphic' options along with. Select one of the many pre-made graphics then 'Next'..."Chose the title bar buttons"...etc. Get the idea?
Someone who has never even tried skinning or even a graphic app, could make a skin in minutes.
Just an idea.

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SirSmiley

Join Date 06/2005

+38

Neat idea Patrick24. I think that's more appropriately called "theming", it is definitely simpler for most people. I do a lot of my DesktopX work in red then just adjust the colours myself. Haven't scripted anything in that allows people do do it easily but, if you look at the widget in builder mode most people could easily adjust it.

Brad started a thread yesterday about making Widgets simpler. I'm a Xion fan but, not really an avid computer music user. Also, since I do my graphics in GIMP I'm not sure how the exported psd file would work. Going to look into the concept for creating skinnable widgets though.

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Alternate Setting

Join Date 03/2004

+24

As it's slipped down to page3 I'll bump it back with an additional note.

In my #11 re. skinartistry.com videos, I'd meant to highlight the Control Panel tutorial. It's the largest flash video @ 24.7MB.

So to recap. Register @ skinartistry. Navigate to Downloads > Members Only > Tutorial Files. For a step by step introduction to skinning the Control Panel select the video titled 'Skinning101, lesson 2'.

(PS: I'm not getting airmiles for every new skinartistry member

)

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2of3

Join Date 10/2006

+816

I always get so frustrated when the preview looks ok, but when you apply the skin it's all screwed up! Since I don't know anything about code, my skinning is totally graphics oriented. I personally would benefit from a more accurate sense of how the skin will actually look.

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