Flack Jacket

Join Date 11/2005

Question about permissions

Riddle me this...

I recently submitted a modification (LCARS New Evolution) of someone elses work (LCARS Evolved by Alpha-Omega)... which was promptly rejected for the reason stated that I needed to get Adam Soleys' permission because some of my graphics looked like his But no mention of permissions from Alpha-Omega from the site administrators. Fine... I obtained the proper wording giving Adam Soley credit (even though I used no graphics from him) to have the submission allowed and it was listed.

Promptly I started getting barrated and accused of ripping the work of Alpha-Omega and then the submission was pulled by the site admins.

I did however get the proper permissions from Alpha-Omega following that but the condition was that I could not release it here because of some bad blood (none of my business). It is currently released at DeviantArt here --> http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/29544245/

My question is this...

1: Why do I have to give credit for graphics to someone whom I never used any graphics? Adam Soley used (ripped) graphics that can be found all over the internet and he was not required to gain any permissions nor give any credit.... why is that?

2: If I make an image from scratch and it is even of a completely different color of an image that resembles it... does that make it someone elses image?

3: Wouldn't any images of the design and look of LCARS be a rip of someone elses no matter who you are sonce Adam Soley didn't invent the design?

I have found all of the images that Adam Soley used on the internet and many of them are not even changed in the slightest from the ones he downloaded and used, not even the colors... so I ask... why does anyone need to give him credit especially if not one image was taken from his (hardly even functioning)theme and reused?

I am not trying to start a fight but I was treated very badly and I would like to know why a ripped graphic theme is allowed to stay and everyone is forced to pay homage to the author when others are not.

Just seems funny that one person can be called an original author using images pilfered from all over the net just because he was the first to steal them and make a theme.

I am not soliciting a bash fest here... please... legitimate answers only... please

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

Promptly I started getting barrated and accused of ripping the work of Alpha-Omega and then the submission was pulled by the site admins.

I did however get the proper permissions from Alpha-Omega following that

Permission first..then release.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

The problem with what amounts to a 'port' of an existing artwork/theme/style/origin/OS/etc is that the first person to compile such asa DX Theme [for example] has used and adapted/adopted those images for a specific use [DX Theme] so, when a second person chooses to do what another has done before him then it can be argued that even the IDEA [not just the images] is original to the second author since it is a repeat of what has gone before.

Since there is a prior history to the second 'version' it can be immediately construed to be a 'copy' of the first. {time-line is what usually defines that].

If BOTH renditions source their images from the same place then the second version simply appears to be a copy/rip/plagiarising of the first, and, taking into account of 'first with the idea' it becomes simply appropriate that permissions are sought so the 'original' creator can determine whether anything of HIS has been directly 'borrowed' and not truly independent...

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

To add....this situation often occurs with ports [which is why purely original works are far more painless]...and happens a lot in the alternate shell world [eg. Litestep]...

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Night Train... as usual your ripping wit astounds me.

Admin Jafo... thank you... fair enough answer whether I agree with it or not.

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Also Night train,

Your reply had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with my question. If that is to be the extent of your posts, may I suggest that you concentrate less on typing meaningless drivell in order to increase your post count and more on the fine work you do in your releases.

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Not trying for a flame war but I don't think NT's reply was complete drivel(just could of used a little more explanation

).
The way I understand it is:

A gives B permission for use
B then gives C permission for use of B's work

however if any of what C is using comes from A's work (who only gave B permission) then permission would also have to come from A.

Hence, permission first... then release.

At least I think that's the way I think it goes (Jafo's post confused me).

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What you say is totally correct... that is what he said

However

It doesn't even come close to addressing the question that I posed, it mearly keyed in on a couple sentences of the whole which were not the question at all, but simply a statement within the question.

For anyone who cares... the question pertained to having to give permissions to ADAM SOLEY, not to Alpha Omega.

The text required giving Adam Soley credit BEFORE IT WAS LISTED was brought to my attention BEFORE IT WAS LISTED and I complied even though I never looked at any graphics in his theme let alone copied any of them.

The question pertained to ADAM SOLEY and his use of graphics that were not even his and his lack of credits to their original authors and then my requirement to give him credit for graphics I didn't copy from him.

Maybe that makes it more clear.

Admin Jafo got it and answered diplomaticly with a very intelligently worded technical manual style explanation. I understood the answer even though of course I don't agree.

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You see...

Night Train makes beautiful themes... but he makes his graphics custom right then for them and they look like no other thing nor any images you can find on the web. That makes it unique in appearance but not under the skin... they probably are using code that others have used over and over again. Does that make it his theme? I am guessing that the code is never in question but if you wanted to get snippy... someone couls concievably claim foul if they believe they were the first to write such code and make a stink.

Now Adam Soley did not make his graphics.... he used someone elses and simply made a theme using those graphics someone else made. In my opinion, that makes the theme format his but not the graphics. In my opinion those graphics are free for anyone to use regardless of who used them in a theme first or not.

This is not the case if he had been the first to make LCARS images... but it would have had to be before Star Trek did it.

Just because he made a theme out of them first doesn't make the images any more his than mine, or anyone elses for that matter.

He wanted credit given if you used his graphics... but he had no graphice of his own. He wanted credit if anything of his theme was used but I used nothing from his theme.

That is the basis of my question and "Permission first..then release." is not the answer.

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

I understood the answer even though of course I don't agree.

I remember when you posted the work. You had a hard time then understanding why it was being questioned and here you are again looking for ways around the rules. I understood your original post completely. I understood you were pulling at strings trying to find a loophole. There are no loopholes. You get permission from the original author prior to posting. PERIOD. hence my answer. Sorry it was what you didn't want to hear again.

Did you really need to be told that if you make an image that it is yours?

You publicly accused Adam Solley of being a ripper before investigating the facts. Perhaps Adam recieved special permission to use those images? Perhaps not. I don't know but I would have used more than logic and assumptions before doing such. Adam spent alot of time setting up his themes. ALOT of time. Did you not use Adams or Alpha Omega's coding to recreate the skin? Is everything you did completely done by you? EVERYTHING?

My initial post was simple and to the point. The point you are having trouble accepting. When you originally posted the work, all you had to do was give the proper credit to Alpha Omega. THAT IS IT. You did not have that permission and refused to accept the fact that you needed it. That's why people were barrating you. You admitted to using Alpha Omegas work yet questioned why you should give him credit. Can you see how that would be frustrating for the community? You were not singled out. Anyone that posts work without proper permission gets flamed. They get flamed hard as they should.

Woohoo, another post for my counts.

I am not out to make enemies. Your logic / loophole hunting leaves out one very important thing. Respect for other Authors. Regardless of what Adam and Alpha did, where is the harm in giving credit where credit is due? Make something yourself and you can be as selfish as you want. Use someones intellectual property and you better give them credit. Respectfully.

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

Just because someone else got away with using ripped images doesn't make it ok for the next. Sometimes the next is where things catch up and unfortunatly you have to suffer the consequences for the same circumstances where someone else may have succeeded. Not to sound trivial but...that's life.

BTW flackjacket, it is a very nice theme. If I hadn't used Adams for over a year straight I would probably be running it now.

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

BTW Flack Jacket. It is a kick ass theme but I used Adams for well over a year and grew sick of it. Otherwise I would probably be running yours.

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Thank you for the compliment Night train but you still miss the point.

The lack of permissions from Alpha-Omega being the reason the theme was pulled was completely understood and I have yet to complain nor try to find a loophole to circumvent that.

Once again... my question pertained to ADAM SOLEY and no other. Heck... I am not even trying to release the theme here... it was specifically stated that I could not from the original author of the theme that I modified (Alpha-Omega) because of whatever tiff happened here between him and who cares.

Lets get really specific... there are themes, rather at least boot screens that display the windows logo. Now I know darn well that Microsoft did not give permission to those people and that IS a registered trademerk. Why are those themes allowed release without proper written permission from Microsoft? Does everyone who uses the Windows logo in a bootscreen after the first person to do so... give credit for the graphic to the first person since they were the first according to the criteria stated by Jafo?

You yourself use vb scripting in your themes and I don't see you giving credit to the person or persons who invented that. Is that different than someone using an image that somebody else used but didn't invent or create first?

All I am saying is that you cannot claim images as your own if you didn't create them unlike all others and LCARS images do not fall into that category.

I modified Alpha-Omegas theme... I obtained permission to release what I made elsewhere than here after making the mistake of not waiting entirely long enough to get the petrmissions I needed from him and him alone. This is not and has never been the issue in this thread and if you cannot see it... please give up.

I just don't see why ADAM SOLEY deserves credit for graphics that ARE NOT HIS OWN!

All I was saying.

Done since I already got my answer from Admin Jafo (whether I agree with it or not).

Everyone needs to get permissions from everyone that had anything to do with anything before the fact, they release here.

What is good for the Gander is good for the Goose.

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You publicly accused Adam Solley of being a ripper before investigating the facts.

Isn't that what you and that other person did to me?

How did you know at the time whether or not I had permission and saying so wasn't required? Don't say because I said I didn't because that was after the flaming.

Just pointing out a double standard.

Subject closed for me because I said what I wanted to say and got the answer I asked for.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

The Windows Logo used by all and sundry does not create the same issue of permissions or accrediting sources as its origin is self evident being a trademark. Microsoft generally doesn't have an issue with its use as it is clearly used by skinners as an enhancement to the Windows GUI and OS through the Art of skinning, desktop wallpaper, etc., which adds to Microsoft/Windows/XP's appeal [as is skinning's intent].

Sometimes, however, a Trademark Owner WILL exert their property/trade dress rights to an image or images. Apple was the first...almost exactly 6 years ago. The place was skinz.org and the issue was with MacOSX [graphics] being replicated for Win systems.

Most recent was Microsoft requesting Kol's 'version' of Vista be removed.

It happens, but it's rare.

If and when it happens it is simply complied with...

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

How did you know at the time whether or not I had permission and saying so wasn't required?

Here is the difference. Adam's work was original. Put aside the images for a minute. The intellectual property of Adam is part of the equation. That intellectual property was granted use to Alpha Omega and eventually to you. Regardless of who made the images, the theme was not original in the design of it. When Alpha Omega posted the skin it wasn't originally his creation. Now it is in your hands. When you posted the theme, it wasn't even second generation, it was third (as far as I know). People were aware that some sort of permission was required. Thats why people got snippy when you posted it without all the necessary permission.
Adam, being the original THEME DESIGNER did not need permission as he did all the coding and design work. He may have used someone elses images but noone ever questioned it until now. When Adam retired he granted permisssion to all to use his work. He asked to be credited if someone does use his work. If he did use someone elses images, and then allowed people to use those images, then it is wrong for him to claim credit. He can claim credit for the theme though.

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I have no problems with that... and you supported my position now that it appears to be understood that I am not nor will I be trying to find a loophole for anything. I am just trying to bring to light a double standard that is being enforced.

Here is the difference. Adam's work was original.

Sorry... that is not the difference... you said I accused without checking the facts and you accused me without any facts, just assumption that I had not obtained any permissions from Alpha-Omega

Perhaps Adam recieved special permission to use those images?

Perhaps I did as well but you didn't ask... you accused.

I was required to give credit to Adam Soley "Because some of your images look like his" is what I was told.

And sorry... he did in fact use someone elses images... heck... he didn't even change the image... he used it as is.

Here is one he used http://www.lcarscom.net/images/lcn.gif
Here is another he used http://www.lcarscom.net/images/okuda4.jpg i'm sure you recognize what is used in this one
Here is another one he used http://www.lcarscom.net/images/lcarswp.gif
I'm sure you will recognize this one http://www.stargazertwo.com/Database/Wallpaper/1701-E%20SysView%20Console.jpg

and many more and his stipulation is not that he demands given credit for theme usage.... only graphics (which are not his)

Any graphics used must be accredited to Adam Solley.

Theme descriptions must have a link to this (The Original) theme.

New Themes are not permitted to have the “LCARS Computer Core 4.02” name.

Other than that the theme is yours edit streamline and bring back to life, if you so wish!

So I say again..... how can someone be required to give credit to someone who didn't have any original graphics to claim authorship of?

I don't care who did it first.... the graphics were the reason the site told me I had to give Adam credit and he didn't deserve any because he didn't invent LCARS graphics nor did he really re-design them... just re-aranged them and or re-colored them.

I also don't care how hard he worked on his theme... I worked very hard on mine too and still am working hard on it with additional terminal screens, I just didn't come up with it first. The only thing that really required credit... was the media player since that was scripted by him but the graphics in that media player were as all others, grabbed off the net. The rest was simple object addition through DesktopX Builder jusst as I added all of the graphics that I actually drew out in Ulead Photo Impact XL and Corel Draw 12 and decided function.

but noone ever questioned it until now

I also don't care if nobody has said anything about his graphics use before... I am saying something now because fair is fair.

He can claim credit for his theme all he wants but this site cannot demand he be given his requested credit (for the above quoted graphics) since they are not original.

It really doesn't matter anyway since I will not release mine here due to author stipulations but it can still be found at the link in the first post of this thread.

I also didn't intend for this to become a heated debate even though I do enjoy a good one. Just wanted to point out that people can get a little too caught up and loose sight of what is actually correct and fair and wield a fist at something they actually only have assumptions and opinion about.

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Oh and BTW... his theme wasn't truely original... there were others before his... his may have had different stuff but it was still LCARS and there were others before his.

Oh... and no credits were given by him for that either.

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me 2 Bichur.....

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

Flack Jacket ...I thought you'd finished with this...[ #13]

My #14 was to clarify/respond to a separate 'issue' you raised.

The rest of this is redundant, as it was fully dealt with in #2 and subsequently in #14...

Those are 'policy' here....the rest is 'opinion'....

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Changed my mind

Then it is this as you stated:

Sometimes, however, a Trademark Owner WILL exert their property/trade dress rights to an image or images

If nobody complains... anything can be used.

Somebody complained about mine... it was pulled.

I am complaining about Adams.... so pull it.

That sounds fair right?

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

No..that is not what is meant at all.

If StarTrek's property OWNER/s request the removal of any/all Lcars theming or images then they will be.

It's ALL about appropriate Authority to request action....

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

If nobody complains... anything can be used.

Also...

That should read "If no-one complains it is then the responsibility of the Site's admins to determine what 'can' be used".

If THAT prevents the display/distribution of something you believe SHOULD be displayed then you are free to do so on your own site....until such time as the copyright holder exercises HIS rights for their removal...

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As I suspected

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