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PowerUser.TV: Episode 10

Autodesk owns it all, Microsoft manufacturing competitors, do bloggers have rights?

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October 11, 2005 1:02:20 AM from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
The new episode of PowerUser.TV is out.  This week, Kristin's gang talks about Autodesk's acquisition of Maya thus making itself THE primary player in the 3D modeling world. They also look at the question about whether bloggers are liable for what they say, and a quick look at the latest Google/Sun stuff -- does Microsoft make its own competitors?
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Frogboy
Arkt0s
Join Date 02/2004
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Reply #1 October 11, 2005 1:30:17 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Wow. Late post m8. So new and sweeeeky clean. Keep the podcasts going plz! I listen to them when I'm changing diapers and teaching clapping 101. Thanks a ton.

SRJanit0r
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Frogboy
wegg
Join Date 09/2001
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Reply #2 October 11, 2005 12:59:43 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Oh my. Battlestar and Stargate are both done in Lightwave. Power User TV might. . . want to fact check a little. Or at least interview people who are in the industries they are talking about. Part of the dominance of Maya isn't really its use in the market. . . but its perceived dominance. This is a shining example of that.
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CerebroJD
Join Date 01/2003
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Reply #3 October 11, 2005 2:44:32 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Wegg, think about more on a cinimatic scale... Pretty much all 3D rendering done for movies is done in Maya, to my knowledge.
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Frogboy
CerebroJD
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Reply #4 October 11, 2005 2:45:38 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Wegg, think about more on a cinimatic scale... Pretty much all 3D rendering done for movies is done in Maya, to my knowledge.
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Frogboy
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Reply #5 October 11, 2005 3:05:03 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

Oh my. Battlestar and Stargate are both done in Lightwave. Power User TV might. . . want to fact check a little. Or at least interview people who are in the industries they are talking about. Part of the dominance of Maya isn't really its use in the market. . . but its perceived dominance. This is a shining example of that.

I know people in the industry and we work with Maya and 3D Studio.  I also mention Light Wave but it is not as major of a player these days at Maya and 3D studio is IMO. 

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wegg
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Reply #6 October 12, 2005 1:11:14 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
When you listen to the podcast. . . he mentions Battlestar and Stargate as examples of things done in Maya and Max.

I'm sorry CarebroJD but. . . nothing is rendered in Maya. Nadda. They either use a version of Renderman, (ILM/Starwars, Pixar/Nemo,) some in house custom tool (PDI/Shrek, BlueSky/Robots) or Mental Ray. These options cost small fortunes to run and support when you start building a renderfarm and are therefore are only options for cinimatic budgets. And Frogboy I have been doing this for a living for over 10 years. Saying Lightwave isn't a major player "these days" tells me you seem to have missed the fact that MOST of the things you have seen on television. . . from Star Trek to Dune to Firefly to Jimmy Nutron to Battlestar. . . Stargate. . . Atlantis etc. Used Lightwave in their production pipeline. 11 Emmy awards just last year. I actually can't think of any award winning television shows that use a lot of 3D animation that didn't use Lightwave. . . Yes Maya is used in movies and works well in large studio environments. And yes both Max and Maya are both used a lot in the gaming industry. Their tools are very open and customizable to programmers needing to get data in and out of it for their custom engines and rendering environments. But "all rendering done in movies is done in Maya" is dead wrong along with Lightwave "not being a major player these days". I know your taking on "to my knowledge" and "IMO" to the end of what your saying but. . . that really doesn't help curb the misconception that Maya and Max are the beginning and end all among those outside the industry.
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joetheblow
Join Date 12/2001
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Reply #7 October 12, 2005 4:36:39 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
WOW

You guys have 10 episodes and I haven't gotten one out the door yet.

lol

I should make one today. Gots lots to talk about...
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RiddickRom
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Reply #8 October 12, 2005 8:12:30 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
'm sorry CarebroJD but. . . nothing is rendered in Maya. Nadda. They either use a version of Renderman, (ILM/Starwars, Pixar/Nemo,) some in house custom tool


I think that is being a little pedantic, when we say rendered in, in general people are refering to the package used to work on the animation.

I checked out your showreel wegg and was most impressed, especially the last few seconds!
Also, I wish you guys would decide where you are talking about this, here or over at powerusertv lol
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wegg
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Reply #9 October 12, 2005 9:52:32 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
think that is being a little pedantic, when we say rendered in, in general people are refering to the package used to work on the animation.


When you press the "Render" button on your rendering application. Thats rendering. Modeling, Texturing, Rigging, Lighting. . . all different. "Rendered in" to me is what app looked through the virtual camera and chugged through the scene producing an image on the other end. I don't know how you could confuse that to be honest. Maya has its own renderer. Even has some nifty unique tools in it like Paint Effects. But it never really compared to the alternatives and so now Alias bundles in Mental Ray to compensate. And wouldn't you know it. . . so does Autodesk.
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RiddickRom
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Reply #10 October 12, 2005 10:51:08 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
When you press the "Render" button on your rendering application. Thats rendering.


I understand the point perfectly but you are incorrect in that the definition of rendering does not refer exclusively to the final output stage. The strict dictionary definition describes rendering when applied to art and the computer

To convert (graphics) from a file into visual form, as on a video display.

and

To represent in a drawing or painting, especially in perspective.

Because you stare at a button called render all day, to you this becomes synonymous with the final process of converting what you are working on into a final image or animation. This does not change the definition of the word, even when applied to computing.

So to clarify, I can use my mouse to draw in MS Paint and consider what I am doing as rendering. I can work on a model in a 3D application and consider that I am also rendering but it actually goes further than this, in graphics circles when someone asks what a picture was rendered in, you will often find the answer "In Maya, using Mental Ray Vx" So even in the graphics community, it's clear we attach a significant portion of the "render" process to the application used to create the raw data. In none graphics circles simply responding with "I did it in Maya" is enough and is common.
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Reply #11 October 12, 2005 3:59:34 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Well Wegg, feel free to put on your own podcast.  When you're doing a quasi-live show, it's easy to make minor mistakes.  But the fact remains, are familiar with the market we're talking about.  I'm pretty sure we mentioned Light Wave.  But even if you take the game industry to be small, Maya and 3D STudio max dominate that market which is a multi-billion dollar industry.  And I know for a fact that Maya was used to do parts of Lord of the Rings trilogy along with it being used to create an awful lot of animatics in many well known FX-laiden movies.
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wegg
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Reply #12 October 13, 2005 12:37:13 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
It is used in a vast majority of movies Frog. But its just one of many tools. Its also quite replacable with the new interchanging tools becoming more and more popular. Studios like to keep their options open. It just so happens to have the biggest mind share. Yes Maya was used in the Lord of the Rings rather heavily. But so was Z-Brush and Renderman and Massive and a whole host of custom in-house tools from compositors to motion capture software. The average person will never hear about all that because for some reason Alias are just so amazing at marketing. You know I'll bet back in the early 90's when you were working on your OS2 products. . . it would have driven you NUTS to hear armchair quarterbacks talk about the superiority and inevitable future dominance of Windows 95. I'll bet you wish there were online forums back then so that you could hop on and try and clear some things up. Its kind of the same thing here.

I understand that you will make mistakes when you run a little show like you are but. . . maybe you guys could find people to interview who know more about the particular industries your talking about? I dunno. When its just opinion stated as fact based on ones experience in a small corner of this rather complex evolving industry. . . Things get really muddled and it will probably frustrate more people than it will inform. No?
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Frogboy
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Reply #13 October 13, 2005 3:59:07 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

It is used in a vast majority of movies Frog. But its just one of many tools. Its also quite replacable with the new interchanging tools becoming more and more popular. Studios like to keep their options open. It just so happens to have the biggest mind share. Yes Maya was used in the Lord of the Rings rather heavily. But so was Z-Brush and Renderman and Massive and a whole host of custom in-house tools from compositors to motion capture software. The average person will never hear about all that because for some reason Alias are just so amazing at marketing. You know I'll bet back in the early 90's when you were working on your OS2 products. . . it would have driven you NUTS to hear armchair quarterbacks talk about the superiority and inevitable future dominance of Windows 95. I'll bet you wish there were online forums back then so that you could hop on and try and clear some things up. Its kind of the same thing here.

Well as a game designer and someone who purchases licenses (as in tens of thousands of dollars worth) of Maya and 3D Studio, don't you think it might be a bit harsh to categorize me as an "armchair" quarterback?

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wegg
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Reply #14 October 14, 2005 9:53:22 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Does buying a Ford truck for $30,000 make one any more knowledgeable about the industry of making, marketing and selling cars?
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Frogboy
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Reply #15 October 14, 2005 10:18:15 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

I've checked out your site and see no evidence to indicate that you are any more of an authority on 3D modeling than I am.

To use your analogy, you would be the guy who has driven a Ford truck and is speaking as an authority.  I am someone who has purchased dozens of trucks, driven the trucks, hired people to drive the trucks, interviewed countless people wo have driven other trucks, attended conferences made by the truck manufacturers, met with people who use trucks in a variety of ways and been to trade shows in which the various truck manufacturers argue their points.  And as if that's not enough, to continue with the analogy, have sold auto parts to some of the truck manufacturers.

I don't see any sort of scenario where I'm an "arm chair quarterback" and you're some sort of industry expert.

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wegg
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Reply #16 October 14, 2005 2:20:10 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Your probably a kick ass dude but in this I felt you were a little out place as the go-to-guy in the whole Alias Autodesk thing and got some things wrong. I fealt it was appropriate to voice my opinion.

I don't know how to program. I haven't ever created software or websites as popular as yours. Your "da man" for that. No?

I also never really claimed to be an authority. I just think I happen to know a little bit more about this than you do currently. THAT DOES NOT MEAN I THINK YOU ARE A WANKER OR STUPID OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT!

I am the owner and operator of a 3D animation production studio that has been around for over 10 years. Our gaming clients have ranged from companies like Midway, MGM Interactive, Activision, Microsoft etc. My company produced a television series comprised of over 2 hours of 3D animation including a cast of over 15 unique CG characters and airs on PBS. http://www.X-Power.com. I have had over 30 talented artists come and go from my on-site staff as well as sub-contracting to as many off site studios and artists. We have produced a number of television commercials and been involved in the creation of several "major" productions using a very wide variety of software packages. http://www.softmachine.de/, http://www.talekeepers.com/. I operate an online 3D model warehouse where people can download purchase 3D related products. . . http://www.eggprops.com. I am a forum moderator at the largest CG related website on the net. http://www.cgtalk.com I have been published twice in 3D-World magazine, been a guest speaker at conventions, have personal friends that work at Bluesky, Pixar and DNA. . . Uhh. . . what else do you need to know?

We probably don't need to go on with this. I have said my thing. Its not like you can go back in time and change what you said nor do I think its a big enough deal for you to offer any corrections. I would be happy to help you out in any way I can. I love Wincustomize. I love Windowblinds and have owned it since it first came out a gabillion years ago. I use Multiplicity every damn day and LOVE it. The Stardock Central "platform" is amazing and I would love to one day offer my products through your service. . . if it were to ever swing more towards content creation. . . Are we good?
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Frogboy
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Reply #17 October 14, 2005 3:06:05 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
wegg: The thing is, you asserted that I'm an arm-chair quarterback on this issue.  I dont' claim to be the be-all end all person on this topic.  But I do know the industry reasnably well enough to comment on it.
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Frogboy
wegg
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Reply #18 October 14, 2005 4:13:57 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Well I guess if you comment on any industry. . . there will always be people who feel the need to correct where they feel they need too. Sorry if I offended.
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