Intel exec fears for U.S. competitiveness

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Intel exec fears for U.S. competitiveness

Future US role in technology in doubt?

External Link

SAN FRANCISCO--Echoing concerns voiced by Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates, a top Intel executive warned on Thursday that the United States risks becoming a second-tier technology player because of a declining educational system.
"We have a lousy education system," Intel Senior Vice President Pat Gelsinger said, speaking on a panel of technology leaders at the Intel Developer Forum here. "We have a weak infrastructure that is decaying."

Gelsinger noted that companies like Intel can adjust by hiring workers in other places but said the consequences for the United States could be devastating. He has noted in the past that the decline in the number of doctorates being awarded is particularly troubling.

I think it goes well beyond this. American culture is also becoming less competitive in the global market place in my opinion. The American need for instant gratification is really problematic. Stardock, an American company, is really half European, half American. That's because many American workers want to make money really fast and in the technology indstury, particularly when dealing in emerging markets, it takes considerable up-front investment in time and energy. Many young Americans don't have the patience or willingness to make short-term sacrifices in order for long-term success.

Locked Post

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

GreenReaper

Join Date 05/2001

+32

Let us look at the Bureau for Labor Statistics, the average wage appears to be $33,176 if we multiply $638 by 52 (probably generous since not everyone works 52 weeks!). And that is the average working wage for everyone in employment.

If we look at data for Brad's area, and specify our rough sector (White collar, Professional specialty and technical, Private), then I figure it comes out to $61631.86. Which sounds a lot better . . . until you consider the fact that this is the mean salary. This implies that the average worker in Michigan is getting about that - and that's the average professional, which includes occupations with even higher salaries (for example, doctors).

This is the thing. New hires out of college are not the average worker. They have not worked for 2 years as a productive member of your company - or probably at any company. They do not have all the skills required to do their job (I'm thinking both social skills and skills with the software/libraries/etc a company uses, familiarity with their products, etc). They are new, and therefore they get a salary to match. If they want the money, they should prove that they can handle the responsibilities it provides, and it is not really possible to do that without having worked there.

I think "pretty low income" is lower than you think.

Successfully updated karma reason!

As I chronicled earlier (in a post probably long enough that no one read it) there is a perception that just by being in the tech sector you are entitled to a lot of money. The economic bubble of the late '90s did that; after all the term "tech sector" hasn't been around all that long comparatively. Think about it. I was born in 1985 and I got out of elementary school in 1996. Most of my formative educational experiences in middle and high school were in an environment where technology = gold mine. My entire generation still holds on to that I think, despite the bubble bursting a couple years ago. The general attitude is "If I'm working in tech, someone is making a killing off of my work, and I should get something out of that gravy train too." Indirectly other parts of the culture contribute to this too, with athletes and musicians preaching that everybody's got to get theirs, and don't stop until you do.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Starting base for an RN= $39,000

One of the reasons for the shortage is the high turnover rate, caused in part by burnout. A significent percentage LEAVE the field after a few years.

You disappoint me Larry. Quoting 2 year old data from an website so inaccurate its comical to try and prove something. There are far more accurate sites out there. Try HotJobs, which has data thats updated Monthly, for example:

http://salary.hotjobs.com/ (updated monthly and factoring geographical location)

The median expected salary for a typical Staff Nurse - RN in Royal Oak, MI 48067, is $61,853.
Staff Nurse - RN 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
Royal Oak, MI 48067 $56,523 $61,853 $66,520

Then we have Nurse Practioners, a couple years more of school.

The median expected salary for a typical Nurse Practitioner - Specialty Care in Royal Oak, MI 48067, is $82,262.
Nurse Practitioner - Specialty Care 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
Royal Oak, MI 48067 $75,400 $82,262 $90,563

Now it is IMPORTANT to consider that these don't factor in things like specific employers, shift differentials, contingency mode, bonuses and perks. Which can easily add another $15,000-25,000 per year onto these salaries for Nurses. Beaumont for example pays about 15% higher than any other Hospital around, so go ahead and add that to those figures. Once again, my facts are completely accurate. With 4 nurses and 2 doctors in my family, my understanding of payscales in the healthcare industry is quite personal.

Now if we look up "Software Programmers or Software Engineers" for this area. We once again see that I am quite accurate in my statements.

The median expected salary for a typical Software Engineer I in Royal Oak, MI 48067, is $56,022.
Software Engineer I 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
Royal Oak, MI 48067 $50,104 $56,022 $62,569

The median expected salary for a typical Programmer I in Royal Oak, MI 48067, is $54,924.
Programmer I 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
Royal Oak, MI 48067 $49,353 $54,924 $62,574

Successfully updated karma reason!

Sign Up or Login and this ad disappears!
There are many great features available to you once you register. Sign Up for a free account and browse the forums without ads.

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Well Kobrano, you should open up your own software company. Me, I've been running a successful one for the past decade. I actually hire people as you know.

As Green Reaper pointed out, we are talking about new hires right out of college.

The median salary of a Stardock developer, 5 years out of college, is pretty similar to the norm, btw.

But some fresh out of college CS student looking for a job isn't just competing against fellow graduates for the position. They're competing against developers from around the world. And the rank and file American developer out of college is not any better than the available developers we can find in Europe.

And simply put, American CS graduates are not able to produce enough "stuff" right away to justify $40k to $50k salaries. Kobrano, I don't know where you get this arrogance from. You're not hiring software developers. I do. If you want to stamp your feet and say really loudy with as much arrogance as you can pile on that American CS graduates should get $50k per year (or heck, why stop there? Why not say $100k per year?) you're free to do that. Just don't complain when employers choose to "outsource" jobs.

BTW, using a job finding site to determine salaries is silly. Look at this one. According to "Hot Jobs" the median salary of a web master is $71k. Anyone in the industry knows that's pretty absurd.

Market forces are pretty unforgiving.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Trust me i'd open a software company in a minute if I felt there was enough return on investment. There are better/easier ways to make money in my opinion. But indeed it is something i've contemplated doing, and have done it before.(Successfully)

Just don't complain when employers choose to "outsource" jobs.

Ok, so you don't throw up your arms in frustration, and outsource, everyone should sign on to making half the 25%tile for their area and shut up and accept it? I don't see what your point is really. But you helped me to illustrate a point i've made for years - corporations are greedy and outsourcing just lines their pockets at the expense of America. (and sometimes our national security)

Your attack on American workers is pretty unjustified. They NEED reasonable salaries because we don't live in shanty towns and wash in dirty canals. They invested substantially in their education and experiance(intern) and need a return on investment thats acceptable. Your idea of "Reasonable Salary" is well below what the market forces in the area dictate. Nothing substantial was added in your last post, so it looks like the discussion is winding down.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Oh and to answer your question on what you call my "Arrogance". Its not really arrogance, its just that i've been in and out of the corporate environment for the last 25 years and know their song and dance.

Corporations are quick to blame Americans for why they outsource. Then when things go bad with their outsourcing (such as when theres a security leak), they are quick to once again blame Americans for that too. Corporations are excellent at playing the blame game, and i've been around them enough to recognize the truth despite the wool they try to pull over peoples eyes.

For every single overseas person you hire, you are doing irrepairable harm to our national and local economy. Imagine the economic impact it would have in Livonia, if the 12+ overseas laborers Stardock has were working here instead? The impact would be substantial to say the least. Now magnify that by thousands of corporations across the country, and the impact is quite evident. Its all a matter of increasing profits for corporate officers at the expense of our national security, labor force, and economy.

When it all falls apart, make sure you know who to blame. The bathroom mirror might be a good place to start lookin'.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

You'll have to excuse me if I have a hard time taking you that seriously on this particular issue.

In the past few years we've created American jobs. Those jobs wouldn't have been created if it weren't for the abilities of our European developers. This website wouldn't exist if it weren't for European developers.

I'm not *blaming* anyone. I am simply telling it like it is:

(1) Products and services compete for the buying dollars of consumers.

(2) Those consumers rarely, if ever, make an issue of where those products and servers were created.

(3) Price is a major factor in someone's buying decision.

Therefore:

I can either: (a) Just hire American developers off the college assembly line and pay them $40k to $50k right off the bat and be uncompetitive in th emarket thus eventually going out of business or ( Hire the best and brightest developers from around the entire world who may or may not cost as much as that American college grad.

I am just curious why people like you think it's okay that consumers can choose products and services from around the world but that companies should be limited to only choosing employees from their nationality -- i.e. discriminate against others simply because they didn't have the good grace to be born in the United States.

Feel free, however, to start your own software company and compete in the real world against other software companies using your hiring criteria. In the mean time, I'll go on with my "greedy" strategy of hiring people from around the world to create a successful company that has been steadily hiring Americans (and people from other countries) throughout the past few years.

Successfully updated karma reason!

GreenReaper

Join Date 05/2001

+32

Kobrano: Depends how you figure it. If Stardock hadn't hired overseas people back in '97/'98, chances are pretty good they would be bust right now, or at best still struggling. Instead, they've helped create a whole new line of work - making custom skinning solutions for companies and selling suites to individuals, as well as hiring more than a few Americans along the way. Isn't that worth something?

Successfully updated karma reason!

In the end, all you can blame is simple economics. If outsourcing reduces cost, companies will outsource. There are some tradeoffs, and not everything can be outsourced (if you server melts down, you can't call your specialist in Calcutta to come out and look at it). If the inconvenience of not having the people working in the same building with you is less than the amount saved or it can be overcome reliably through electronic communications and/or video conferencing such that the company still saves money, then companies will outsource.

If you're a believer in Adam Smith and free market economics, you'd actually be in favor of outsourcing as long as it lowers cost because that's what the market demands. I'm a college student and will be entering the workforce full time in the next couple of years, but I can't complain too much about outsourcing because I do believe in capitalism. If Stardock can look back and honestly say that outsourcing benefitted the company monetarily, then bravo. According to Mr. Smith, being greedy is your civic duty

Successfully updated karma reason!