Will_Uknight

Join Date 12/2004

Comercializing Skinning

Commercializing Skinning

I’ve been thinking about this for a few days now, and I thought I’d share my thoughts with you.

You can already see that Wincustomize sells commercial skins for $15US or whatever.

How about thinking of a system where ordinary skinners can earn a token amount for their work…

The basic gist of my idea is that:

A) to download a skin, any skin, would cost 1 credit.

(lets ignore variations for now, obviously a complete windows theme would be worth more then an icon)

People can convert dollars into credits in $5 lots, and credits into dollars in $20 lots.

C) You can only 'sell' skins if you are a Wincustomize subscriber

1 Credit = 1 Download,

1 Credit = 1 Cent ($0.1)

There are 3 main reasons why people don't like to pay for things on the internet.

Problem

1) The hassle of transferring money, even small amounts

2) The price, who wants to spend money

3) The variety, why pay when you can probably get something similar for free.

Solution

1) Make it automatic, or a 1 click process,

you click "Download" and X credits will be automatically transferred to the skinners account.

2) Make it so cheap that no one would begrudge paying

3) It would be easier to pay the tiny amount, then trying to find an alternative

This system would be spread across different levels, much the same why it is now:

Visitor: Can download free skins

Registered Member: Can download credited skins, and upload free skins

Subscriber: Can download credited skins, and upload credited skins.

The reason for having to be a subscriber to upload credited skins would be so that Wincustomize benefited from the minor hassle that implementing this system would create. I would guarantee that they'd have 99% of skin designers becoming subscribers in order to enjoy the benefits of such a system.

Anyway, I just thought I'd share my ideas with you. I know that $0.1 per download is barely worth it, but it would mean that the skins were taken more seriously, it would mean that it would be something you could put down as job experience, it would mean that more people would be able to justify being subscribers and it would mean that more people would bring their creative talent to the skinning world.

I know that I've often wished I could quickly and easily make a small donation to creators of skins and software. Alone its not much, but it adds up

Thankyou for reading.

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WOM

Join Date 01/2002

+253

Seems such a small payout for such a big headache in coding the thing up.

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I'm already a customer, the idea of having to pay for skins for a product I've already paid for isn't a good idea to me. To me personally, I would think that a skinner would lose interest/creativity when getting paid is involved (there are actually studies on this, payment/reward reduces intrinsic motivation for doing something you already enjoy anyway). If some of the skinners wanted to make money, they could offer premium suites, like a few already have here, or perhaps fulfill requests (the site I'm staff at has a skin requests forum where they can request a skin and someone can fill the request for payment).

But like you've said, there are issues when it comes to spending money on the internet. There could be quite a few young people here who either are using the free versions of the software or had parents buy the software for them, they wouldn't have any way to spend money to download skins (especially if they're using a free version anyway, why on earth would you pay for skins for a free product?).

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why on earth would you pay for skins for a free product?).

Someone gives you free accommodation....you can still buy a painting to hang on its wall.

The 'skin' is an entity in its own right, and is an artform just as any other, so payment is justifiable equally whether for a 'free program' or a bought one...

Decision to purchase or not is up to the 'customer', just as it would be with any other commodity...

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Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

Will,

I agree that appreciation is due for all the art offered for free here at WC.

Compensation for hard work is always good.

I think a big issue for this idea might end up being in the support field. If someone has issues with a downloaded skin, who does the user contact and what are their rights.

I have noticed that once a person pays for something, there is an inherent need for the product to work properly or for someone to fix it.

Just something to think about for a venture like this.

Free art remains relatively stress free, with the possible exception of being concerned about whether others will like the work or not.

I will admit that I have paid a pretty penny for a majority of my software, and do enjoy a freebie now and again, so I may be a bit biased on this one - though I know that as soon as Mormegil whips out a new project I will be one of the first in line to pay.

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hey guys, no hate messages, *is relieved*.

Seems such a small payout for such a big headache in coding the thing up.

Well if it was implemented, it certainly would be worth it for Wincustomize to code it, i mean look at how they'd benifit from increased subscribers. I was also thinking that WinC. could take a cut out of every currency exchange, fit it was nessary, i.e $5 = 490 credits.

I'm already a customer, the idea of having to pay for skins for a product I've already paid for isn't a good idea to me.

The skins aren't made by the same people that you bought the program from, they're made by individual artists. You wouldn't buy Windows XP and expect to get all the software that runs on it for free, its the same thing. Wincustomize is a commerical site anyhow, not an open source/freeware site.

To me personally, I would think that a skinner would lose interest/creativity when getting paid is involved

i think it would be the oppisite perhaps, i mean i'd certainly like to know that when i spend hours and hours making a skin (because i enjoy it) i'd probably earn enough from it to buy a pizza or something

it would make you feel like your work has some value.

But like you've said, there are issues when it comes to spending money on the internet. There could be quite a few young people here who either are using the free versions of the software or had parents buy the software for them, they wouldn't have any way to spend money to download skins (especially if they're using a free version anyway, why on earth would you pay for skins for a free product?).

Therefore the issues need to be examined and solved. Young people are as able as anyone else to make transactions over the net, I'm only 19 myself and i've been doing interent banking since 16.

At 1cent or so per download, its a trivial amount and most people wouldn't go through more then $0.20 at the most !

Decision to purchase or not is up to the 'customer', just as it would be with any other commodity...

Exactly

I have noticed that once a person pays for something, there is an inherent need for the product to work properly or for someone to fix it.

I think at 1 or 5 cents a pop, people aren't going to expect any more customer serive then they already do for free.

It doesn't matter if you pay 5 cents for something, or you get it for free, people are still going to ask for help if they need it.

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RomanDA

Join Date 12/2003

+147

I was just looking at "my skins" and saw that several of my skins had been downloaded several thousand times, and i thought "what if i got 0.05c for each of those downloads... Yeah thats not much to ask from the person who is downloading, and it does help us skinners at least a little.

I have some WMP skins that have been downloaded in the hundreds of thousands of times, and that 0.05 would have ended up being a good deal of money.

This would also help with another issue.
If you make me pay 0.01 - 0.05 / skin to download it, AND you make it so i cant leave a comment or RATING until i DOWNLOAD it, then im having to PAY to comment and rate a skin, then that would (i think) DRASTICLY Cut back on these "drive-by" comments and ratings people!

Im all for it.. Maybe have it so that insteed of the skinner getting paid they could get credits themselves, or even free subscripitions or stardock s/w.

Think about it. If I have a skin that gets downloaded 100x maybe i should get a credit on my account (to allow ME to download) of 100 points. Or even have a .02/10 deal meaning for every 10 downloads you get an extra 1 or 2 credits. Or even give me credit to pay for my wincustomize subscription. or the latest and greatest SD product. It would be a gient circle. I buy the product to use, I make a skin, I get paid for that skin, and i then pay for the next version of the software or subscription with that credit.

Even if this never happens it might also benifit WC to offer "discounts" to skinners who have more then 10,000 downloads or reach a certain level. This allows QUALITY Skinners to be able to upload and download here without haiving to pay for a full subscription. Thus keeping good skins on the site. I know i kind of feel like im helping WC make money off my work and im having to PAY them to do it.

just my 0.02

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this is like a five year plan.......you can't just do this overnight
so if somebody didn't suggest it, it would probably happened anyway in some way
but asking money will scare people away, no matter the costs.....
there is always an alternative.....
i have to say that some skinners deserve to be rewarded for their help and submissions on this site.... they brought you a lot of subscribers, i'm one of them

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Skinner RomanDA > Essentially what we do is make great content for Stardocks products, for free, which encourage people to buy stuff from stardodck. If a method like this was implemented, then both parties would benifit, Stardock from the increased subscriction activity, and the Artists (us) from being rewarded for our work!

Ozzy> I agree that it couldn't work overnight, but it is something that could be thought about, and if it ever was implemented. i doubt it would take more then half a year.

My plan was for the site to still host free content, for example people that don't want to/can't suscribe, would still be uploading free skins.

As i said before, if the entire process of 'paying' can be streamlined and made easy, then it won't put people off. the process would have 3 steps

1) Register to Wincustomize (get 10 credits free when you register ?)
2) Use paypal or a credit card to put credit on your account
3) Download as many skins as you want untill your credit runs out.

if you said that a minimum credit purchase was 500 credits, then that would last someone for a year or so!

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

the entire process of 'paying' can be streamlined and made easy

Cut Stardock and WC right out of the loop. Send the checks directly to me. It doesn't get any more streamlined than that.

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so people have to find out your bank details, pay you, wait for confirmation, download the skin ?

and then repeat that everytime they want to download something...

thats why shareware's lame, even if its worth it.

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Seems like that would complicate things. Skinners don't skin for money, maybe not even fame and glory. They skin to skin. Skinning is commercialized enough as it is. You get a little extra out of most programs when you buy. WinCustomize.com is like a public square where people come to share what the have and know. Involving money only cheapens a good thing. It would cause an influx of cheap "just for the money" skins. I don't want that kind of site. There is a system that works, and it works for a reason.

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um Wincustomize is already comercialized, you're supposed to sign up to be a susscriber, and buy all the stardock products, and they already sell skins for money, the only difference is that they charge like $15 per skin, and no one else can sell them.

And as i said before, with this system, people could still releace their skins for free if they wanted to, it would be their choice...

And at 1 cent per download, people aren't going to make much money by releaving crappy skins...

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Wil, i hope it will take more than 6 months
i just got a subscription and it is for 2 years so if in like 6 months i suddenly would have to pay more that would be a bit weird.......that was not in the agreement
so it would take more than 6 months to do something like this

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Nice idea, but it wouldn't work. While I'd be inclined to pay for full suites of exceptional quality, such as those released every now and then by Pixtudio or Skinplant, I'd have no interest in paying for single skins, no matter how small the cost might be. The ability to use skins is already costing me a fair bit. While I do appreciate the hard work skinners put into their submissions, at the end of the day, my buck stops at fully skinned suites and goes no further.

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If person is dying coz of suger,why somebody will give him a pison

I mean they have lot of subscribers,and thousands of clicks everyday...and offcourse growing number of gallaries because of "SKINNERS".and forgot to mention "sponsers".

why they need change? Basically you all want "pizza party".
Nice try guys...

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Fuzzy Logic

Join Date 05/2002

+493

Hmmm, I might not be from the US but I believe one cent is $0.01 not $0.1

At that $0.01 rate I am owed $2500. Cheque please

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

I have to add a reality check here. You proposed that Stardock would get $.10 for every $5.00 spent on the skins. In exchange, you think that this would raise subscriptions.

Well, it would lower subscriptions. People pay for subscriptions to get unlimited access and to support the site. If they have to pay for a subscription and then pay for the skins, too, then it will cause people not to buy subscriptions. Sure, you *may* have more skin artists buying subscriptions (though most have already subscribed) but the majority of the users on here are not skinners.

Take your "cut" that Stardock would get in exchange. First, it would take 6 months full time for two high end coders to implement. That is equivalent to at least $60,000 (not including lost revenue from other projects not being completed). Then, every time that $5.00 is processed, Stardock is charged 3% of the transaction + $.25. That is $.40. So, we would be losing $.30 each time we processed $5.00. Say that 2,000 people processed $5.00. We would "get" $200, but we would be charged $800, with a net loss of $600. Then you have to consider that somebody needs to send the checks to all these authors. That costs money. You would have somebody spending days each month processing payments. Authors that were very popular would require 1099's at the end of the year (more expense). Then, there is the expense of bookkeeping disputes and technical support. The list goes on.

How many subscriptions would be needed to cover those costs? (I can give you a hint: it's more than double what is currently sold). WC barely breaks even as is. It takes a lot of server power and a ton of bandwidth to keep this site alive. Don't get me wrong, Stardock does benefit from having the site. However, we also have a lot of expense in making it better and faster all the time. It's just not solely funded by subscriptions. It's still funded by a "Stardock Grant" per se.

Trust me, we have already thought about this. There are different ideas for a viable system. However, there are points that have to be addressed.

1) There would have to be strict moderation, and only those that made it through could be "sold"
2) There would have to be a higher amount paid per skin
3) The costs of the system would have to be covered by the profits
4) It can not alienate the existing users or cause the skin authors added expense

Some thoughts have been to have higher subscription amounts, and have a "premium" section. The premium section will be filled with the "best of the best" and the skin authors in that section would get a profit share of the premium subscription based on their download stats. Subscribers to the premium subscription would only get to download so many "premium" skins without having to pay an additional fee to download more.

Obviously, we haven't come up with a viable plan yet. But, it has been in discussion for quite some time now. We would *love* to have a system that paid authors for their works. However, we can't bankrupt the site in the process.

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Here here!

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

I've written something up on this that I never published, it's from mid last year:

I've got bad news for some people. Premium skins, themes and suites are here to stay. The good news is that it will likely result in an increasing number of free skins as well.

When WinCustomize first started, 10,000 years ago, we were accused of being elitist. The main reason this charge was made was because we are elitist. But not in any sort of bad way. Just elitist in the sense that we thought some human beings were more valuable than others and all others should be subjugated, converted into their nutrients or used as slave labor. And how can that be bad?

Seriously though, what we decided to do on WinCustomize that was and still is unusual is that we have access ranks. Citizen to Apprentice to Master Apprentice to Journeyman to Master. With around 1.5 million users here, 99.9% of them are Citizens. Over time, people who contribute to the site would move up to Apprentice. And then eventually on up. A handful make it to having Master access and a few others become moderators.

How does this relate to premium skins? Because eventually, users with Master access will be able to start creating and selling premium skins and themes -- here on WinCustomize. These are people, after all, who have made it to that position because of years of freely giving to the community. And it means they are very very good at what they do. The problem with "free" is that free doesn't put food on the table. So those skins are made in their "free" time. If you want them to create wonderful complex works, you have to move into their "non-free" time. Hence, premium skins.

It’s a win-win situation though. For long time givers to the community, they will be able to get something back. Users will be able to support their favorite skinners. And up and coming skinners will be able to have an incentive to make great free skins as they climb the ladder resulting in even more free stuff for users.

The process will start out rather slowly though as we don’t want a flood of premium skins. They will have to be evaluated still so that the quantity remains manageable. But over time, users will be able to choose amongst an increasing library of exceptionally high quality, professionally created skins, themes, and suites.

A recent poll showed that most people think skinning should always be free. I can respect that. On the other hand, most things we purchase at the store have premium add-on content.

I can buy level packs or expansion packs for my games. I can buy extra textures and plugins for Photoshop. 3D Studio has a cottage industry of premium models. In fact, there are entire websites dedicated to selling 3D models. And while I can get free songs, most songs we’re supposed to pay for.

That said, there will always (and should always) be free alternatives out there. The system doesn’t need everyone to agree in order to function. WinCustomize itself survives only because a miniscule percentage of users purchase subscriptions each year. Survives being the operating word. WinCustomize's current model really isn't sustainable because it still requires Stardock to pay 2/3rds of the costs which will only be sustainable as long as its *customization* software does so well.

Premium skins holds out the potential for the site to become self-sustaining and for skinners to be compensated for their work. After all, when users start being asked to purchase a subscription (after having downloaded 50 megabytes of stuff) many suddenly discover the plight of the poor skin author who they say needs to be compensated (and what they mean is that WinCustomize or Stardock should do the compensating). But soon they'll have an opportunity to support the skinners directly. Oh happy days!

You can find some existing premium skins here: Stardock Premium Skin page. As well as the Orion icons page and Carbonix and Oranda.

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Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

KarmaGirl and Frogboy,

Thank you very much for the crystal clear (at least for me) comments. It definitely puts things in perspective.

Now I must get back practicing my CorelDRAW and Photoshop skills - as well as increasing my understanding of highlights and shadows (let's see, does the light reflect there too?

).

Oh yeah! I think there is a SkinStudio beginner's class starting soon somewhere. Cool, I might be able to create my own skins to use and share. Maybe even earn a higher access level and someday sell a couple suites..............well, maybe..........if I adjust that margin just so, and............yeah, that curve looks smooth now................okay, who can I get to help me test this thing?

Worth a try anyway.

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Thanks a lot for entering this discussion ?
My proposal for a $0.10 cut for stardock was only a guess. I have no knowledge about stardock or what requirements would be needed to even think about implementing something like this. If Stardock needed a larger transaction fee to make such a proposal viable, then that could be worked in. From what you say, a cut of $0.50 per transaction would be necessary. That’s still pocket change, even if you were converting only $5, the customer would still get 450 credits!
I think the main reason people do subscribe to stardock would be to support the site, and to get access to the extra features for subscribers. People wanting unlimited downloading of skins could just register multiple accounts every time they needed to.

Then you have to consider that somebody needs to send the checks to all these authors. That costs money.

You misunderstand my proposed system. Instead of people getting money each time someone downloads a skin, they get a credit. Then when they have a minimum amount (say: 2,000 credits or whatever) they can get those converted to cash by some relatively automatic system and transferred to their paypal account (or something). A transaction would be applicable on these as well, to cover account checking, and other requirements.

1) There would have to be strict moderation, and only those that made it through could be "sold"

I thought about this, and it wouldn’t be much different then the moderation already undertaken. Perhaps there could be and additional checkbox for moderators to tick if they thought that a skin wasn’t worth its selling price. Then if the skin didn’t meet the standards, it would be a) rejected

released for free

2) There would have to be a higher amount paid per skin

any higher then $0.10 for skins, and you turn the payment from trivial (and not worth worrying about) to something that people think that they don’t want to spend that much for some skins) Based on what I said above regarding a transaction fee, I believe that the system could support the low price I proposed.

4) It can not alienate the existing users or cause the skin authors added expense

That is why the price should be kept down as much as possible, so as to one person, it is completely inconsequential, but to the skinner, with hundreds or thousands of downloads, it adds up to be an appreciated reward. The only cost to skin designed would be a subscription (if they didn’t already have one) which would eventually pay for itself.

The problem with this is that the premium subscribers would have to pay a significant amount (probably at least $10US) which would be off putting.
My idea is for the price to be so low that a person feels that it doesn’t even matter whether they they buy it of not !.

btw, in the present sytem is it possible for a non-subscriber to earn a higher user level though skinning ?

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Interesting thread. I think I should mention something. Before I registered at WC, I would set my cookies to "off" so I could download as many free wallpapers etc as I wanted too. When I started to use WC too much, and it bacame too much of a headach to keep cookies turned off, I eventually registered. During this time I was not contributing by the way. Then after collecting wallpapers, blinds, and icons for the shareware versions of the Stardock Software I was using, I eventually decided to start contributing. After contributing for a while, I seemed to be having upload problems. Whether real or imagined, it seemed to be happening, and I decided that an easy way to have easier access to share was to purchase a subscription. Now I have a pretty nice library, I am happy to contribute to the community, and I regularly visit with fellow contributors, moderators, and members of the winCustomize/Stardock community in the winCustomize/SDC chats and forums like this one. I am actually content with the current state of affairs, and I enjoy the feeling that through time, I will maybe earn the privilege of higher rankings through honest work not driven by the motives of commerce, but by the pure desire to contribute to a community of likeminded individuals. I think this site is one of the greatest things to come along. There are many resources for us, but as a central source... this site is the pinnacle of our community. It took me a year or so of freeloading to come around to the realization that this community only exists as long as there are people willing to contribute... freely... and honestly... with no feeling of a need for a reward or compensation. There are a few lessons to be learned from this confessional:

1. It is possible if not evident that there are many people who arrive here daily who freeload just as I did.
2. If you have the skills, and you are a freeloader, you may eventually wise up to the fact that you are hurting the community by not committing in some financial way.
3. Free skins etc. do eventually encourage people who would otherwise remain freeloaders to join the ranks of those who show their belief in the system with the support of their dollars.

Why change a system that works? I am habitually cheap, and if I can be converted to a contributor, it is possible to convert the remaining "majority of users". Free is good, but not nearly as rewarding as contributing to a great system.

Peace

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btw, in the present sytem is it possible for a non-subscriber to earn a higher user level though skinning ?

Yes...

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Technically, right now WinCustomize operates at a loss. It almost breaks even on just the bandwidth (and even there it depends on the month). When you add in operating costs and salaries, it loses a considerable amount each month.

There are a lot of different options. But all of them involve the site (WinCustomize) receive most of the actual revenue involved since it's the one paying for most of the involved costs.

Let's use DesktopGadgets.com as an example. On DesktopGadgets.com, a user can submit a skin and will be able to propose a price. The minimum we'll allow them to charge would be $3.50. On that system, which would be automated, the site and the gadget provider would split the revenue 50/50. And that is on something where the gadget author had to pay $69.95 to begin with to create the gadgets. That's the best case scenario and is only possible because the purchases of DX Pro would be subisidzing that.

Another possible plan would be a subscription plan. The user would pay $3.99 per month. And in return the user would receive say a token. Skinners with MASTER access or higher would be able to submit content and set how many tokens they would want to charge. The skinner would receive $1 for every token spent on their skin.

In the real world, the one who does the publishing/distribution receives most of the income because they are the ones paying most of the real cost.

In our last game, The Political Machine, a game Stardock funded 100% on its own, came up with on its own, etc. Stardock received 20% of the revenue and Ubi Soft received the other 80%. That's the standard rate. Anytime the content creator receives more than 20% they're getting a good deal.

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I don't think every skin should be chargeable. Most skins suck. I think people should have to earn the priviledge to submit commercial skins.

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