Serious Ratings Abuse Still Happening

I have just recently suscribed to wincostomize (just last month) so I still got alot to learn about using this site. But here is an idea that may or may not work for you. How about showing two ratings on a skin. One would show the over all rating for the of the artist of the skin, and the other would show the rating on that perticular skin.

I also feel, as some of the users of this site, that it is only fair to the artist to first download and try the skin before rating it. I did just that with the gold carbon skin. I then left a rating and comment about it.

I think that idea #1 may turn out counter productive because if people have to leave a comment, they my not give the artist a rating at all.

I do think that idea #2 is a good idea because it would allow the artist of the skin to see what the users of the skin had to say, and from that the artist could decide what they could change on that skin or in any another skin that they make.

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Hey ya all,been on ski trip for da weekend

,just got back and well feelin extremely happy and in creativity spree

.Quite activity in forums as well

.Well just saw the thread and for all itw worth i just took 5 mins to think and shoot.

So here goes...

Rating system change proposed:
A skin is fair enough to have the benefit of doubt so a good point to begin with is to have it taken in with a solid 6,one above average rating. As it is done,for the rest of rating system see below...

Suppose we have a rating as a 100% score,then the following percentages should be given as below:
a. Original Artist: 10%,it's the guy who created the skin,so he has right to judge it.This rating is to be shown by the skin.If an artist tries to become abusive (e.g. constantly giving himself a pat in the back with a standard 10 rating) i believe the public will show its reaction/gratitude.
b. WC Subscribers: 30%,the people who support the community and it's fair enough to rate,but with the obligation to leave a comment stating reason why.I propose ratings moderation,if no reason is given (e.g.Just saying its good or bad or crap or beautiful etc) then rating should be: 1. Valued to the 66% of its worth if 7 and above(e.g. If a 9 was given with no reason then be undervalued to 6) 2. Valued to 80% of its worth for ratings between 4-7 (e.g. If 6 was given with no reason then be undervalued to 4.8) 3. Valued to 150% of its worth for ratings from 1-3 (e.g. If 2 is given with no reason then be overvalued to 3).
c. WC Journeyman and above title: 30%,these are people who are chosen to become who they are because they are of recognised importance and experience,thus their opinion is valuable.They are also supposed to be trustworthy people.To be able to rate would be available to them only when downloading the skin (e.g. The rate system to activate only when hitting download button),but don't have to give reason why as WC Subscribers.
d. Download Counters: 20%, cause its the only way for the general public in WC to express opinion.This should work with milestones and would work as additive to the original 6 grade the skin is given: E.g. Ratings to downloads milestones example climax:
6=1000
7=2000
8=3000
9=5000
10=10000
e. Moderator who approved the skin: 10%,the one responsible for accepting skin into library should also rate it after approval,obligatory rating with a symbolic value,but showing the opinion of the mod,should be only referred in the acception e-mail,no public announcing,no commenting,just for the author to know.

All in all the ratings shown on site would be the Author's rating and the overall rating after some math.

Hope this sounds like a good plan for rating,tried to made it fair enough,dunno if it's technically possible,dunno if it's functional,haven't yet tried to judge from a distance for fairness or what possibilities of abuse are available,yet still a suggestion

.Hope someone gives this a look

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WOM

Join Date 01/2002

+253

So if you are a Journeyman or above and a subscriber your rating is 60%? Which does the person have to do, download or comment or both? Way to much to code for I would think. But I don't pay -
an's salary.

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kona0197

Join Date 02/2003

+86

d. Download Counters: 20%, cause its the only way for the general public in WC to express opinion.This should work with milestones and would work as additive to the original 6 grade the skin is given: E.g. Ratings to downloads milestones example climax:
6=1000
7=2000
8=3000
9=5000
10=10000

I agree with that idea. DL counts should count for something besides just counts.

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Phoon

Join Date 10/2001

+382

The rating system works perfectly as it was intended.

The rating system is working as designed.

It's no use coming up with any more ideas. It seems that the Admins are happy with this system.
Sorry I brought it up, I for one thought it was a problem. Guess not...

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

Its not the rating sytem that is the problem, its the raters.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

Its not the rating sytem that is the problem, its the raters.

Eye Dee Ten Tee Error strikes again...

Yes, the rating system does its job as a filter to differentiate between those logged in and those not logged in....as to what they have access to.

Generally it also works well as a sorting method for 'good' to 'bad'.....[crossover occurs with personal taste].

If absolute bandwidth were free then everything could be visible to all and no 'filter' need apply.

But it isn't, so they are not...

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Thats very true "".....[crossover occurs with personal taste].""

Content does have alot to do with it although it probably shouldnt. But I personally wont download and use WB's if I dont care for the content. People should not rate based on content alone, but it's hard to seperate the theme from the mechanix..if you dont like what your seeing to begin with how can you rate it upon usability and over all functionality?

Take your DOOM WB as an example Phoon..I personally think it totally rocks! but someone that goes to church twice a week, spends time trying to solve the worlds hunger problem, likes new born kittens and adores butterflies, would not use a profane word if their life depended upon it..They probably would not like the DOOM WB..at all. it might even be offensive..Should they be allowed to rate it?..and how could they ever rate it fairly?

Im thinking that alot of the artists here have been saying that the ratings do not mean so much to them as the fun they had in the creativity of their work and the sharing of it with people that do like the content.

So far after reading both threads , thats my take on it.

I think whats most important is that *you are satisfied with the works you offer..Please yourself first, because it is impossible to please everyone..

Oh Yeah,
Shutting up again, LoL
Zero.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

So far after reading both threads

Therein lies the rub.....there have been dozens of threads, not 'two'.

There is a constant demand to invent a better mousetrap every time someone notices some mouse droppings.

Sometimes all that is needed is a broom....

Jafo is rapidly running out of ways to say the same thing...

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Koasati

Join Date 07/2001

+21

Cyberworld... that has to be the most convoluted rating system ever.

kona... download counts are just that, and in no way reflect the quality of a skin. Jafo's "Lost in Bryceworld" (or whatever it was called) proved that.

phoon... all the Mods aren't neccessarily 'happy' with the rating system, but it's the one we have, and we deal with it. We have no more say in how it is implemented than you do. Personally I think the way the 5 star system is tranlated back to the 10 point system is very confusing, but that's the way it is.

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So if you are a Journeyman or above and a subscriber your rating is 60%? Which does the person have to do, download or comment or both?

You'd act as Journeyman,not a subscriber.Journeyman would be hierarchycally above and so would be the way you rate.

Cyberworld... that has to be the most convoluted rating system ever.

I know,that is why it took only 5 mins to think of it.

In retrospect it must be way too much coding to be accomplished.

Oh well fair enough,the ratings system stays as is.

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I plan on becoming a member regardless..

Double Zero....you are already a member. I think you mean you plan on becoming a subscriber....and your statement there may be proof enough of the confusion that some newer folks think that you have to be a subscriber (member) to see all skins.

I won't comment on most of what Angel has been saying, just not worth rehashing. She did bring up one valid point about the inconsistencies between the different pages that talk about levels and benefits and I think that over time there has been inserted language and paragraphs to try to keep this stuff up to date, but the overall pages probably should be rewritten. Here are the three pages...

https://www.wincustomize.com/AboutSite.aspx
https://www.wincustomize.com/resources.aspx?cmd=3
https://www.wincustomize.com/store/index.aspx

This is the text of an email I sent to Stardock about a month ago....

There seems to be some confusion about user and access levels, who can rate skins, etc. showing up on the messageboards. There are three pages that mention user and/or access levels and benefits to them...

The WinCustomize Store page https://www.wincustomize.com/store/index.aspx
WinCustomize Subscription Info page https://www.wincustomize.com/resources.aspx?cmd=3
WinCustomize About Site page https://www.wincustomize.com/AboutSite.aspx
BTW the link is bad for the About Site page....shows as http://www2.wincustomize.com/https://www.wincustomize.com/AboutSite.aspx

Here's where I can see folks getting confused about User Levels, which are given through financial participation at WC.

From the Store page....
WinCustomize User Access Increases to Level 5. Once you purchase any Stardock/WinCustomize product, you are automatically promoted to level 5 access. This will entitle you to many exclusive features, such as unlimited file downloading on WinCustomize, access to skin ratings, your very own WinCustomize personal website, and much more.

From the WC Subscription page...
Level 4: Active Stardock customer / Elite User. These are users who have either purchased Object Desktop Network or some other Stardock product (Stardock is WinCustomize's sponser), or has Apprentice access or higher due to contributing to the site in other forms (making skins, being an active contributor to the message boards, etc.). These users get all the benefits of a registered user plus:
Access To Skin Ratings.
Unlimited File Downloads. Say good-bye to file limitations! No more annoying messages preventing you from getting your download to work.
So on one page you are told you become user level 4 with any purchase from Stardock and on the other you are told you become user level 5, which on the WC Subscription page is for WC Subscribers only. Notice also that it states on the WC Subscription page that an Apprentice is also given user level 4 and therefore has access to skin ratings, when the whole citizen (1), apprentice (2), master apprentice (3) and journeyman (4) structure is based on access level not user level and if you go to the WC About Site page it shows that you gain access to skin ratings at the journeyman (4) access level. Also the Master Apprentice (3) access level isn't much more than a brief remark under the Apprentice description with what seems to be no more access that an Apprentice has.

Journeymen
A handful of "super-citizens" will be at this class. These are people who are significant contributors to the community. They can do everything an Apprentice can do but also rate the skins.

You were a great help explaining the adovacy system to me before. Hopefully you can sort out these pages so that they make sense to folks. My best guess would be that you have to be either an access level 4 journeyman or an user level 4 current customer to rate skins.

Cheers,
Stephen aka Essencay

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Phoon

Join Date 10/2001

+382

Its not the rating sytem that is the problem, its the raters.

Ya know.. now THAT is a painfully obvious angle that was so plain that I didn't even think to look at it that way.
THANK YOU Night Train.. That single little sentence made more sense to me than any of the long drawn out
psychobabble that I have been reading and fuming about.

I can accept that answer as the true source of the problems. End of issue for me.. PERIOD.

Double Zero - When I started the tread, I wasn't necessarily referring to my Doom Blind. While I wasn't at all happy with the ratings it got (there was some foul play in the beginning on it but that was resolved wonderfully by the Admins), I did come to accept that there are a couple little things with it and the content might not appeal to the groups that you brought up. Oh well.. no sleep lost on that one. Thanks for your outlook too.

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Essencay, thanks for the clarification..I admit I was a little "Foggy" about that. But, I think becoming a suscriber defintely would make me personally feel more like a member.

All I have done is purchase one stardock product, windowblinds, I do not really think thats much of a contribution "membership" wise, and it certainly doesnt show the amount of support I would like to offer this community, if I could.

The first 3-4 months I owned WB's all I would do is read these boards, I dared not post upon them..::laughs:: But more and more I saw people posting questions that went un-answered for possibly various reason, and some of the questions I was able to answer but I did not, determining that I wasnt anyone that should. But putting myself in the "users" point of view..remembering all the frustration that is possible when answers elude one, I just started offering to help and support wincustomize at least along that avenue. If people are able to get the answers they need to continue using the products they have purchased, they will eventually, 9 times out of 10, purchase other products and perhaps even subscribe themselves. If one that I have offered answers to does indeed subscribe, then I have succeeded in supporting Wincustomize.
Im not rich, and dont have alot of loose cash, so I do what I can in support of [in my personal opinion] one of the bests sites on the web..."thats my story and I am stickin to it"..LoL

Phoon, I know that you werent referring to the DOOM blind, it was just a great example of content. I have seen skins rated highly that I have DL'd and just scratched my head in wonder about why it got such a high rating, and another that had more content, being more complete as far a progress animations, sound and even backround images got a low rating. But as I have nothing at all to do with the ratings, and they dont really affect me one way or the other, all I do is shrug and give it the ol "Whatever" [my daughters personal annoying favorite!..LoL] and continue using the skins that I personally like no matter what their rating is.
Anyway, your welcome for the outlook, but I cant stress enough, I am not at all always correct, just very opinionated...LoL...

Take care guys,
Zero.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Sounds like some of you have excellent ideas for creating a new skin site. I would recommend going and trying one. In the meantime, I'm pretty satisfied with the current rating system and how it works. There is no perfect solution, so we stick with "good enough".

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BoXXi

Join Date 03/2001

+393

With regard to my Gold Carbon skin.... it's first rating was a 10, but then a high ranking admin rated it a 3, so that dragged it down. Then it got a bunch of 3 ratings and a few 7's, but I think the admin rating kept the average down. I can't say I'm a fan of this new rating system, but if I don't like it, I can just stop uploading my stuff.

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Fuzzy Logic

Join Date 05/2002

+493

As a skinner, or any artist for that matter, you just have to live with the fact some people just don't like your stuff. That might sound a bit basic, but it's reality. You may think you have just produced the best work ever, someone else will come along and think yuck!

At the end of the day most people have more important things to worry about than a few ratings. Fuzzy Logic looks disinterested, rolls over and falls asleep...

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

In Boxxi's example, I was the one who gave it a 2 star rating (which gives it a numerical value of 3 under the covers). I submit that as evidence as proof that we, admins, are pretty objective. If we're willing to give our friends a 2 star rating, then what else can people expect?

If anything, since I've known Boxxi for something like 5 years, if anything, I'd be biased for him. So we give our straight opinions no matter what. (though I do wish I could give it a 2.5 star rather than a 2 star but that's a different story).

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Yeah Frogboy, I do miss the 10 point system..I gave 2 stars but would rather have given it a 5 under the old system....oh well

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I do miss the 10 point system

me too

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I'm new in these parts of town so if you want me to put a sock in it I won't be offended

It would seem possible that the quailty of skins that have benn submitted to WC in the years since it has been opened has improved. Not only has the ability of said skinner improved but the programs themselves and thus a higher quality of work "can be" seen. Now obviously this is not always the case as new artists have a lot to learn about the craft. To give recognition to those members who have given a great deal to WC, they are given a rank and title.

My idea (and this is where the "put a sock in it" part come in) is to have catagories of rating that tie in with the ranking system. For example, if Mr Joe were a journeyman and he submitted a skin or whatever, and it passed moderation, it would be placed into a journeyman catagory and would be rated along side other journeymen's work. If Mr Joe had spent months and it was a good piece (for a journeyman) then an 8,9, or 10 rating could apply. However, a ten in a journeyman catagory would still only be a 7 or 8 in the next catagory up.

Now clearly the Citizen catagory would be huge and the other higher catagories smaller and smaller, but the recognition of being a journeyman would bring a responsibility to produce a better quality of work. If Mr Joe kept submitting bum skins that were consistently being rated low, Mr Joe would probably be looking at a demotion. If they were consistenty being rated high then he would be looking at a promotion.

So who gets to judge what catagories? Well this I don't know, partly because I haven't been around long enough to understand the system fully, and partly because I don't feel qualified to. (Maybe Citizens by everyone, otherwise only by the rank higher than you, maybe? I'll be quiet here)

What I can say is that the present system of the higher ranking people having more effect on the ratings should stay. After all they have the experience right.

The advantage for this system is that people who just want their stuff on the web but who don't care to much about the quality will remain a Citizen. Those who want to increase in their abilitys/gifts will produce better skins, receive promotion, have longer exposure as there would be fewer submissions to that catagory, and would only try to submit skins of equal to or better quality. Ratings would be more effective in being constructive, and your skin would not be lost in amongst the thousand of Citizen skins.

Skinners could submit to a catagory lower than their own if they chose to, i.e. if they were only mucking around.

Well I think i'm out of ideas at the moment.

Thanks for reading.
Akoloutheo

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WOM

Join Date 01/2002

+253

It's amazing how this thread keeps going when Frogboy has already said, the rating system is here to stay.

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...anybody want some ice cream? I still have some "Creme Brule" left.

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butch123

Join Date 01/2004

+201

Developer Sleeping Dragon Creme Brule..yum sounds good, but I would have to port that with me as I gotta rush off...for some pizza.

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I know WOM but I was mulling it over and it seemed a good idea. I did say you could tell me to put a sock in it!

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Serious Ratings Abuse Still Happening

Serious Ratings Abuse Still Happening

rehashing an old favorite