Any PORT in a storm..... » Forum Post by Jafo

The "Porters"are getting exactly the same kudos for a port as the "Skinners", who create their product from scratch. Is this fair compensation for time, creativity and effort expended? Now this site is a business. It is in the business of primarily offering product for programs, as well as other avenues. To me it is good business sense not to put a restiction of any kind on ports. And I am assuming that's not going to happen. Therefore what could be done to satsify all. (everybody will never be satsifed of course). One way I could suggest is that a port not be eligible to rate any higher, for example, than two and a half Stars. Now the crappy Ports and the Crappy oringinal skins will not rate high anyway. But a good oringinal skin will be able to rate 3 or 4 stars. Only an outstanding effort will rate 5.

Of thousands and thousands of people who visit this site I would venture to say "they don't care" if the skin is and original or port. If it looks good to them and they think it will jazz up their desktop they will download it irrespective. There definately not on the message boards offering suggestions.

Now keeping in mind the above is just a suggestion, a question arises, do the porters think they should eligible for the same ratings as original skinners??

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kona0197

Join Date 02/2003

+86

Now keeping in mind the above is just a suggestion, a question arises, do the porters think they should eligible for the same ratings as original skinners??

How about you actually do a port sometime? Porting takes work, sometimes hard work. Don't knock it till ya try it.

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butch123

Join Date 01/2004

+201

do the porters think they should eligible for the same ratings as original skinners??

You bet...

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Fuzzy Logic

Join Date 05/2002

+493

I think there needs to be a differentiation between types of ports.

Porting from one app to another: say someone wants to port a WB skin to a dx object - that's fine. The one porting deserves all due credit for the work involved, as does the original author for supplying the graphics/inspiration. Don't forget, not all skinners want to make skins for all the apps available. So porting is a good way of getting your work spread around.

Porting from one app to similar: say logonUI to logonXp or msstyle to WB - these should be ported by the original author. At the very least, if someone else ports the skin (with permission of course ), the credit, download count etc, should go to the original author, not the porter. Also any extra work required (msstyle upgraded to full WB functionality) should be to a high standard and compulsory - no 'five minute' jobs.

As has been said, the end user doesn't care as long as they get what they like. That's fine. But skinners should be allowed to retain pride in their workmanship and not have that pride devalued in any way.

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Koana, it was just a suggestion, why don't you come up with somthing original instead of knocking.

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kona0197

Join Date 02/2003

+86

I disagree Fuzzy - A port is a port no matter what kind your doing. I'm very sick of the way msstyle porters have been treated and continue to be treated. In fact the reason I quit porting msstyles was because of the constant crap I got from the community.

If you do a msstyle port correctly then it's a lot more than "one click"

I'm very concered about the way porters are treated. All you people are doing is driving a nail into the community. I've thought about removing my ports more than once and leaving.

Bottom line: Any port is a skin. ANY PORT. As soon as people start treating porters better all this will end.

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The rate thing has some merit, but not if the skins getting rated in which affects the viewing and downloads. Like saying"do you deserve a 5 for someone elses work" maybe, maybe not, depends. But to the end user, is it worth the download, thats how the rating works. But even if the rating didn't affect anything, it wouldn't make sense or be fair really, besides at 2.5 stars that means a person that ported and did indeed do some work albiet in varying degree's would get at max half the rating that rippers could get.

I could also see not getting a download count for ports being a possible thing, but people looking for skins based on popularity would lose the option to find it.

All in all it simply comes down to the fact that, there really isn't any good ways to punish or restrict the people that port. Because there's no logical reason to punish, restrict, or shun a person that is doing you (the community) a favor.

So basically, what jafo said 57 posts ago.

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

Is someone that ports a skin an artist?

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"Bottom line: Any port is a skin. ANY PORT."

Absolutely true, yet a person that makes a calender for rainlender from a windowblinds theme has done two things, ported a skin from a different type of application altogether but in fact also made that particular item themselves.

Whereas as a person takes one thing, doesn't change the skin at all but just makes it work on basically the same app with a different name. It's not the porters creation, or his skin, and hence the credit should go to the person that made it, aka the original author.

I'm sure everyone would agree with me, that if I took all of Jairo Boudewyn's dock icons and wallpapers and ported them to misc icons/icon packager and bootskins, EVEN WITH HIS PERMISSION, that I would NOT deserve an instant 1.2 million downloads NOR deserve the credit for them.

and no, a porter is not an artist, yet many are capable of it and do plenty of art themselves often in the skins they do port, but a skinner doesn't have to be an artist.

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Here's a good quick look at the difference between a skinner an artist and a porter, keep in mind these are like extremes of each type, and most people that do one type of thing will often fit under more than one catagory in varying degrees.

Skinner: https://www.wincustomize.com/ViewSkin.aspx?SkinID=703&LibID=29&comments=1

Artist: https://www.wincustomize.com/ViewSkin.aspx?SID=1&SkinID=742&LibID=8&comments=1

Porter: https://www.wincustomize.com/ViewSkin.aspx?SkinID=1057&LibID=2&comments=1

The guys that can do everything:

http://theskinsfactory.wincustomize.com/viewskin.aspx?SID=5441&skinid=3324&libid=1&comments=1&UID=685985
http://pixtudio.wincustomize.com/viewskin.aspx?SID=5403&skinid=368&libid=22&comments=1&UID=685985

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kona0197

Join Date 02/2003

+86

I see some things never change nor will they in the near future. Attitudes represented here are just MORE reasons I'm not going to port again.

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It's all very simple. There is no need for special rating system for ports vs. original content...just rate the skin according to the quality, completeness, useability, etc....whatever rating system you use, just use it. So if a MSStyles Port doesn't have as Fuzzy noted "...any extra work required (msstyle upgraded to full WB functionality) should be to a high standard and compulsory - no 'five minute' jobs., then rate it accordingly.

If someone is doing a half-ass job of porting Msstyles, it's up to the folks that are granting permission to stop granting it, nothing here we can or need to do to stop it...except offer to help that person build a better port or make the original author aware of how, not so well, the ports of his/her works are being received, if the porter just doesn't get it. Just as a permission is given, I'm pretty sure it can be retracted.

As for who should get credit (downloads and ratings) for a port....the one that created the port. Whatever effort, 1200 lines of code (way too much coding for me

) or one-click whamo. Either way, the person porting has permission to due so, and was given permission to upload the port under his/her own name...again...so long as appropriate permissions are noted and included.

Anyway, everything will sort out in the end, provided enough folks that have the ability to rate and comment do so.

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

Very clear perspective Steve. You brought it all back to the basics.

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Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

0

Kona,

It would be a shame to see you stop porting.

I quite enjoy your port of "FXP".

I agree Essencay in #62, very practical and fair.

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HG_Eliminator

Join Date 07/2002

+354

all this "whos better than who" BS is going to ruin WC....skinners VS porters VS screenshots uploaders..yesh.....soon there will be fighting amongst the apps ..Winamp Skinners VS WMP skinners.....all this segregation isnt good for the community....i fully respect each of the viewpoints given ...now ask your self....is this argueing going to help the site or the community ? or is this just for ego?..

i may piss a few off with my viewpoints .. but heck popularity is overrated

......

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Essencay has the right perspective, and the people who upload the skins, whether "from scratch" WB skins or ports of MS Styles have to answer to themselves..I'm sure many a talented skinner has released a "not up to standards" skin from time to time, and someone porting has done 5 minute jobs, but damn, each one knows where they fall short..Seems to me the ego is the problem..both ways..the talented skinners get their egos bruised when a port is received better than their skin, someone doing a lousy port gets his ego stroked cause people like the look of it regardless of the quality...hell, some do it ONLY for their ego, to get away with what they can to show high downloads and such, by flooding the site to get high numbers. At the end of the day, you know within yourself where you fit in the mix...do what you do to make yourself happy, and if you brighten other peoples lives with your work, all the better

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*warning this post contains so much text your browser may explode, best suited for monitors with a resolution of 1600x1200*

"I see some things never change nor will they in the near future. Attitudes represented here are just..."

It wasn't so long ago when you first came here, I remember multiple times the ADMINS no less, found your attidude on here much less than appropriate. Regardless, no one here is flaming you, and I'm not questioning the contributions that porters have and do make or the importance of them.

"whos better than who"

...Not a topic that has really come up in this thread.

"i fully respect each of the viewpoints given ...now ask your self....is this argueing going to help the site or the community"

It could help. It would surely hurt the community far worse for people to not voice opinions. Patting each other on the backs for every action someone takes, whether they deserve it or not, isn't going to accomplish anything.

A community is a group of people that have common interests, nothing more or less, and no rules can be laid out for how that community will interact or thrive. But you can't have a community without communication. “To communicate is the beginning of understanding.”

People shoudln't have to worry whether or not they're allowed or to express their opinions, especially not at something called a "forum." The only thing people should really worry about in their posts is the manner of how they say it.

If you like doing something, you better make damn sure that you are first off, "doing-it-for-yourself", before you even start to worry about anyone else.
Even Mr. T pities the fool that tries to make the whole world happy.

"i may piss a few off with my viewpoints"

Well I guarantee you I do, but I'm going to speak my mind anyway. If someone's is going to take the time to listen, it's only fitting that you actually say something worth being told.

"hell, some do it ONLY for their ego, to get away with what they can to show high downloads and such"

Whatever floats their boat, but I don't think many if any skinner, is going to get their ego's shattered and become jealous from any direct porters or their download count. If they do get jealous you can pretty well rest assured it's the original author they're envious of.

And since when is an "ego" a bad thing, we all have one, your ego is the part of your psyche that is conscious, it's the nature of all your thoughts and behaviorisms. Ego is not short for egocentric, or egotistic, or egoism, or egomaniac, or ego trip. Your ego is like your pride, and if you're not proud of what you do, maybe you've got bad motive.

Furthermore the download count we authors have may not seem of any importance to the typical user or any other person, but to us; those little numbers are pure gold. Any skinner/artist/designer here that says his DL count doesn't matter to him isn't meek and humble, they are lying. Those set of numbers for the authors here are by far the most important and accurate source of info on how successful a given creation is. Arguably as much, or more important are the comments, which provide (hopefully at least) TRUTHFUL opinions from a barrage of various diverse users. And honestly, comments have much more potential to make a person arrogant than numbers.

So lego my ego, and sorry for the deviating rant. You people think what you like, say what you mean, and if you're able to, do what you want, no one can expect anything more than that.

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davad70

Join Date 03/2001

0

Personally...I just don't understand the point of uploading ports of .msstyles any more. The importer in SKS has now gotten to the point where it converts to .wba almost flawlessly. If someone sees a .msstyle they like, they can just fire up SKS and have a WB version in about a minute. Given that...what's the point of me converting something in 2 minutes and then uploading it? Almost three years ago, I did one of the first ports from .msstyle to .wba http://davad70.wincustomize.com/viewskin.aspx?skinid=2375&libid=1&comments=1&SID=4286&UID=188 I did it the old fashioned way..image by image. I also did this one about 2 1/2 years ago http://davad70.wincustomize.com/viewskin.aspx?skinid=2391&libid=1&comments=1&SID=4286&UID=188 again...no importing. These skins took me weeks to complete. Since then I've used SKS to import VS's for my own use. Even when the import didn't work very well, it only took an hour or so for me to fix whatever didn't come through right. There's a huge difference between the two processes. There have been many VS to WB ports uploaded here in the last year that were obviously just straight up imports, and the "porter" didn't even take the time to fix the small things that would have only taken an hour or so to fix. I have no problem with people doing ports, there are some great ones out there who have done a lot of flawless ports...Pas, Snidely, Honz, just to name a few. I respect these people because they take the time to make sure the skin is right. In spite of them doing a great job...I just don't think there is much of a point in doing them anymore with the way the importer has progressed. Ports to different apps are a totally different thing to me. Porting to different apps is one of the things that this community was built upon.

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HG_Eliminator

Join Date 07/2002

+354

there is nothing wrong with having "ego"or"pride" in what you do, but i see no need for some to be mean or belittleing to others that they feel are beneath them...many of these people even tho they may not be the "masters" at skinning .. are trying to contribute even if in the slightest way..and i tip my hat to them.....im not saying there aren't some just in it for the #'s.. but when a whole group is sterio typed as "willing to sacrifice integrity for cheap popularity"etc.... that's just not rite..

ive ported... ive built from scratch .why? because its fun. .im proud of both.....ive uploaded a few here to share...if i was out for #'s i would have definately been pumping things out like mad .. but since i port i must be some #"s crazed loon trying to get an up on the rest of yas??? .. it really makes a person feel bad when their trying their best to contribute, to have someone lump them in to a nasty sterio type.....theres peeps in every aspect of skinning willing to sacrifice integrity for cheap popularity . not just porting....

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Matchbook

Join Date 08/2003

+100

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2 mins to get a flawless port? I don't think so. I spent weeks working on my port of ThemeNorth's VelvetWaves. I learnt many things about what WB and SKS is capable of and what its not capable of.

What of the people like Kol, he is bring over his mmstyles to the WB format himself, but he is not starting the skins from scratch, he is running them through SKS and adding WB specific elements.

Incidentally, my next port that I'm working on is based off a Linux GTK2 theme - there is no easy SkinStudio option for that, does that mean the skin will some how be superior because there isn't a importer?

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I agree, people that do ports still have to do alot of work. The only thing that is sortof done is the idea of the design. The person porting still has to make the graphics in that design for the new program then put it together.

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davad70

Join Date 03/2001

0

Incidentally, my next port that I'm working on is based off a Linux GTK2 theme - there is no easy SkinStudio option for that, does that mean the skin will some how be superior because there isn't a importer?

No, not necessarily superior...but in my own opinion (which we all have a right to, correct?), more respectable.

Did I hurt your feelings because I didn't specifically mention you as one of the good "porters"?

I'm not saying the site should or should not do anything regarding this whole issue. I learned years ago, not to get my panties in a wad over anything here. Just offering my opinion.

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You Goober!

Well said! #50

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I see no need for some to be mean or belittleing to others that they feel are beneath them...many of these people even tho they may not be the "masters" at skinning .. are trying to contribute even if in the slightest way..and i tip my hat to them...

I would fall in that category HG. Thank you for the support. I simply love this site. I wish I could do more. (I Have purchased several things to contribute to the site, which in return benefits everyone including the 'Master Skinners') No im no master skinner, probally never will be. But I appreciate all the work that others do and admire, even look up to some of you guys like Jafo and yourself HG. Just keep up the great work.

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