moshi.....the whole concept of porting an OS is different to copying a private individual's images.

Don't give me this crap....you are not that stupid to see the difference.

If one accepts 'porting' of an OS...eg to create a MS version of Linux....or a Linux version of Windows....via their respective GUI shells....it's a different issue to grabbing the Mona Lisa and calling it a WinAMP skin.

Give me a break....I'm not in the best mood to split hairs with the argumentative.

What is NOT ok is a second person making use of those same images in the same creative way as the first person. The first person's creative input/originality is being plagiarised by the second person....and that is deemed 'ripping'.

So because Juni stole those images first, then that makes it ok. Well, we better call Microsoft to take down those images off their MSN site, cause obviously Juni has them copyright, cause obviously he must, using them in both his Pocket MSN and myPDA skin.

I'm trying to make a point. Jafo, you said that because Juni grabbed those images from the net, THEREFORE no one else in the whole bloody world can use that MSN House, Clock, Person, Linky-thing, in ANY skin, EVER again. I mean, seems like Juni is subverting all rights and establishing his own, "new" copyright, because he happened to stumble across that page first.

Lonnie...

your ears must be plugged or in this case eyes must blocked, grab your shoulders and pull really hard towards your back and listen for the loud pop.

I understand you are attempting to present your position (which is already known) but it has gotten to be a moot point. Thrash and trash all you like, but please do it some other place.

Or better yet Why don't you pratice what your chosen nick implys and skin something of your own so you are not put into the position of defending what you submit to a site?

Frankly isn't that what skinning is about, not staying with the status quo and creating something origional?

on an off note, don't you find yourself wondering what it is exactly that not only you but anyone else involved is being so sticky with on this subject?

When I do something I want it to be the best damn thing I can do so when others look and ask I can say with some level of pride that "yes I did that..." it is called self satisfaction in expressing my talents...

Using anything that someone else has done and claimnig "yeah I did that" is no more than mental masturbation in that one is seeking self satisfaction from others efforts and nothing more than false acclaim.


I would hope your beyond that...

and in no way do I apply this to porting which is a valued process in my opinion and does in fact have proven talent needed to do correctly. So don't anyone try to claim I imply otherwise...

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My point is quite simple. It's absurd to think that Juni owns the rights to how he uses stolen images. I mean, if he goes and steals screenshots from Longhorn, to make a Longhorn-esque taskbar, does that mean "I" or anyone else cannot do that?

C'mon, it's a taskbar. If Juni didn't bother to create the damn images himself, he has no right to tell anyone else that they can't find the same source, and use them in a similar manner. I don't see anyone raising a stink when everyone else grabs a screenshot of your Windows XP taskbar and create yet another "original" XP skin, but in this case, because Juni stole the MSN images for his myPDA, and stuck em on the desktop, oo..there's copyright there! WATCH out!

There's some very loose ethics and double standards going on here. Either it's all illegal, and we're just having fun creating fan art, or we're just ripping each other off all the time, and therefore no one in the wide wide world can create another OS skin after it's been done once.

There's some very loose ethics and double standards going on here. Either it's all illegal, and we're just having fun creating fan art, or we're just ripping each other off all the time, and therefore no one in the wide wide world can create another OS skin after it's been done once.

thats just it.. Fan art is Gifted material, though those materials still have some sort of condition for their use.

Skinning is the same, there should not be any gray areas with it. Until such time that people take it upon them self to actually practice there not being any gray/grey areas there will always be contention.

Personally, I will be releashing material publicly with registered copyright through a service and I will also release publicly free to use and modify material at the same time. There will nto be any question as to what is freely given to the gerneral public and what is gifted copryright materials. There will be water marked layers inside each image aong with overall in total theme/skin screen shots with the same layer. Notification will be included with each type of material and the rights granted for each type.

It is a subscription service located at http://www.c-site.com and there is also a legal service which deals with infringment if it comes to that ( though I would not seek such unless someone used material in a commercial product such has taken place with a certain persons icons in a web management product: for example )

But even Fan Art has it's stipulations applied to it being gifted material, no one other than the origional creator or copyright/trademark holder owns the material or any derivative of that materail if it is directly employeed in what they claim as their own.

It really isn't an issue of who did what first, but one of gray areas muding up the waters and only we as a community control that, just as we as a community and on individual levels decide what a skining site will be...

frankly I'd like a nice productive inclusive one where people work alone and together as the need or feeling hits them withou fear or fame of being dragged or dragging others into the mud.

[Message Edited]

this is a quote from the PPX developer when I suggested skinners will be scared off

Skinners should be no more scared to skin for PPX as they are for any other application, the same caveats apply in all of them. This is an ignorant argument and I am tired of it being used to cause panic to suggest to people they shouldn't skin for PPX

I think all would have been well for PPX if the developer had simply told anyone contacting him to direct their complaints to the website hosting the offending skins. He chose to get involved and chose to make silly suggestions like don't rock the boat! Apparently in an email I received he says he will involve MS and Snoopsoft. Ok your making ms skins and skinning an ms os with elements that parody ms... I don't think they will be concerned and snoopsoft should stay out of it just as PPX should have.

"What is NOT ok is a second person making use of those same images in the same creative way as the first person. The first person's creative input/originality is being plagiarised by the second person....and that is deemed 'ripping'."

Yes but only by a "thieves code". I rip or borrow nothing so the second skinner that "borrows" is just as guilty to me as the first.

In the real world, if someone rapes a person, then gets raped again by someone else, the first raper is no less guilty then the second raper. That is why it is difficult to defend skinners to people who are not skinners, it seems.

"God knows how this can be explained to you, personally, as a bolt from the almighty would fall on deaf ears, but without getting all esoteric and hypothetical and idealist, the reality is that if you are NOT the first person to use an MS icon as a bookend then you are the second and therefore most likely have copied the first."

Well, from what I saw from Lonnie's actions, at first he simply copied Juni's images directly from Juni's skins. Then he went to the same source Juni did. This would be the eqivalent of them each taking a pair of Nike's from the same store. Of course also, later, Lonnie made similar looking objects, objects that are close but not the same. Enough so, that if you merely glanced you couldn't really tell. Only way to really tell was to open both up in a graphic editor or use both skins (but that is another issue altogether I think). Which I feel was an intentionally way to get attention. He could get Juni in an uproar and then say "Ah-HA!".

And yes I do get it, under your "thieves code" the laws are born of convenience. Whatever is good for the majority of the coven, no other legal or real world factors are really taken into account. Sorry for not completely understanding, I live in the real world and don't traverse this side of the tracks often. I appologize, I was already confused from the get go, because if I went to the store and stole something I would have to go to jail. This all seemed to be the same issue to me. I see now, either developers do NOT know or they conveniently turn a blind eye.

Please make note these "discussions" do not exist at PPX3k.com. So whatever you read is strictly ouside agitants.

dickheads

This entire ordeal has gotten me very cynical. There was a time when I thought the best of people. I thought that if some newbie came along and did a rip... instead of the entire community jumping down his throat, that instead the right thing to do would be to help him understand. I thought that most skin site mods and companies that supported skinning all shared the same ideals. How innocent I was..

I know that in terms of being a skinner, my opinions don't mean much here. I have graphics knowledge but no talent at it. But I know enough to know that Juni didn't steal from anyone, but plenty was stolen from him. There's more to it than sticking a resized icon on top of a longhorn screenshot. It's a quick one by Juni's standards, but not as easy as Michael makes out either. But then again skinners would know this.

And I know my rantings may be annoying, but if my rantings have warned one person to think twice before dealing with the PPX gang, then I've accomplished something. I suppose by default I'd be on Juni's side, but there's more to it than that. If my rantings and ravings are annoying, just ignore me, and hope that one day this doesn't happen to you.

Edit - plainsong has been around since the middle ages of the last skinz.org, but who doesn't say much...usually.
[Message Edited]

Lonnie, can you read?