paxx,
re Tennessee, etc.
Unfortunately, there's a pretty substantial number of such people here in the states, especially in the central parts. I live in Oklahoma, and there are people like that here, also. They aren't everywhere, and the whole state isn't like that (and neither is Tennessee), but sometimes that's what gets the attention.
Unfortunately, such attitudes are less about faith than about indoctrination. I'm not bashing anyone who truly believes, but even the true believers don't accept victimhood as the price of faith, only the indoctrinated can be convinced to bear that burden.
I may have teased Kona a bit when I asked him if he'd change his view if God told him to (I am curious about his response
), but I personally know people who cannot even consider the idea without dissonance (one girl I know was practically in pain at even having to think of the concept when I asked her the same question). If one cannot even consider questioning what they're taught (by anyone), that's a sure sign of indoctrination, rather than faith.
There is nothing wrong with the *concept* of religion as an avenue to faith, but unfortunately, there seems to be quite a bit of failure with religion in practice. Far too often, God and faith are used by humans to gain power for themselves instead of guiding faith in God. Bow or broil (as IPlural mentioned), is often the weapon used in such venues. The mantra is often, "You *must* believe as we tell you to believe or the most horrible things you can imagine will happen to you". My problem with that viewpoint is that it is the moral equivalent of holding a gun to someone's head and telling them what to do. You don't get true faith based in love and honor, you only get a weak analogue of faith, imposed by fear.
Motivation matters. Why one believes is at least as important as what one believes. I personally, have been told that it would be best if I 'believed' (followed their particular religion), JUST IN CASE! Does a person making such a statement not comprehend that were I to do so, God would see right through such a fraud? Even if I am wrong, I would rather face God honestly, instead of pretending to be something I cannot be.
IPlural,
The body of your previous post is usually summed up as 'Why bad things happen in the face of an all powerful God'.
Certainly, there is no easy answer. My own viewpoint stems from my belief about creation and growth. First, to clarify one point, I do not anthropomorphize God. To picture God as human like in form or quality is, IMHO, a vast underestimation. One thing that should be clear to most people is that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to truly concieve of or visualize a person or being that is fundamentally more wise or intelligent than we are. Even among humans, a genius is quite often smarter *in a different way* than others are. The difference is not merely one of degree. And a human genius is merely a microscopically small leap of ability when compared to what God must be.
Given such a vast gulf in knowledge and capability, what we see as harmful may actually be an integral part of the process, and may even be required for growth.
For human beings (as individuals), the periods in our lives where we made the greatest gains in wisdom and understanding and other forms of personal growth were virtually *always* directly tied to difficult or unpleasant or painful events.
For human beings (as a species), such growth we have achieved as a whole has also been predicated on the overcoming and learning from pain and challenge and hardship.
Free will and freedom to choose a course of action are required for growth. Experience comes, not from the circumstances we find ourselves in, but from the choices we make in response to those circumstances.
I make no assumptions about what the ultimate purpose is, whether God has some specific plan, or if He merely wants us to grow and learn to whatever ultimate limit may exist. For now, I am content with the need for growth, whatever the ultimate goal may be.
As for why God (despite all of the power He is reputed to have) does not intervene to prevent or ameliorate the pain and suffering we experience, the above seems to me to be at least part of the answer. Additionally, one of the other thought processes that I entertain in such a regard is that the act of intervention may be more harmful than what is being intervened against.
An example I often use is a house of cards analogy. Lets say that I have painstakingly constructed an elaborate, detailed, expansive structure from thousands or even millions of cards. There is no argument but that I have the ability (power) to reach in and alter the state or position of a card, or even remove it entirely. However, the act of actually doing so may very well prove catastrophic to the structure as whole. Depending on the purpose for which I constructed this edifice, the risk of catastrophe may be beyond my willingness to accept, and I would therefore not alter that card, even if it would create a local improvement at that point. I believe that it is possible that God has similar self imposed constraints on His actions.
BTW, to answer your question about acting against someone engaging in harm to another person (whether a child or not), I would consciously and willingly intervene, no matter if someone else decided I shouldn't. Such force would be applied as to assure that the act was clearly stopped. If the only force sufficient was lethal, then the attacker would die. I have no moral quandary in such a circumstance, as the attacker, having voluntarily engaged in that action, has freely relinquished any expectation of non interference. The life and / or well-being of the attacked supersede the life and / or well-being of the attacker.
