thanks paxx. Couldn't resist.

I have to say that my own philosophy also keeps me at odds with organized religion. There is a bit too much skeptic in me to accept 'revelation', so I am left to look at religion as history and take what parts my 'soul' decides is 'truth'. Even when 'history is written by the victors', truth emerges in the fine detail, or in the overall picture when viewed from a distance. I believe truth cannot be hidden, only slightly obscured. I find God 'apparent' in my perception of the universe, and therefore my razor cuts differently than motion's. It may seem odd to both deny the validity of a source, and yet form one's beliefs based upon it, but we do the same thing every time we read the newspaper. Our perception is all we have.

I don't agree with Kona on most of what he says, and I don't agree with his opposition either, but I wish we could all agree that we really don't *know* anything, and atheists and fundamentalists alike are leaning on faith in their perception of the world. I respect motion, and paxx, and Kona, but I think something as important as one's spiritual life, or lack thereof, requires a bit more elasticity.

The person from which Christians take their name gets all of my respect. I can't think of a life more worth emulating. I can't think of anyone else I'd rather learn many of life's lessons from. But that doesn't mean I think that he was the son of God, or is in any way a god himself. A great teacher and thinker, yes, but I can't raise him to the stature of god.

The modern day Jews believe he wasn't the Son of God. therefore that is where the problem lies. he was and is the Son of God.

I do not have blind faith.

The statement I made had nothing to do with a personal attack, sorry.

If we are going to get into that frame of mind, I feel attacked because some of you said you dispise organized religion and that there is no God.

Kona....saying 'there is no God' is not discriminatory...it is an opinion. It's also important to note that Kona's statement was not anti-semitic, either.

The word is 'despise'....and 'organized religions' would be inclusive, not exclusive, so again there is no 'attack' or discrimination/differentiation.

Aleatoric....the survivability of this thread and topic is not a result of 'Established Religions' but is in spite of them. It's the modern scepticism towards religion of all strains that enables free thought. It is safe to presume that were one particular religion autonomous free thought would be its first victim...

Kona....conversely, Man gave God the characteristic of only being 'believed in' by many, but not by all....

I think you all need to watch some more Veggie-Tales. Bob the Tomato can explain all this in one simple fun song.

If not, listen to something from these guys... http://www.audioa.com/

The evolution stuff...all it takes is one time for Christ to touch you as you fall on your knees balling your eyes out and you'll realize how silly the whole evolution thing really is.

Some things just cannot be explained...like why my wife just cannot get the sauce right when she fixes me peppersteak for dinner.

Kona....strangely, God can ONLY reveal himself to those who believe in his existence. If God were an individual entity he would not be so many different things to so many different peoples and religions, but must be a conceptual figurehead/icon of those very disparate religions.

If there is no belief then there cannot be a God [for those who do not believe].

One person's belief that there is none does not negate another's belief that there is one.

Both can be, and are CORRECT, as it is only the individual who can determine its truth.

One person's belief that there is none does not negate another's belief that there is one.

Kona, if God himself appeared to you and told you "I do not exist", you would still not believe him.

More seriously. No, you're right, I wouldn't. I've worked in the psychiatric ward some years ago, and I can tell you that many told me they were God, and I didn't believe them.

Why can't people take responsability for the good and bad that happens to them and because of them?

It's 'we Christians'....and it 'can' be arranged.....

Jafo,

'In spite of established religion (or the desire to have one) was pretty much my point. Reading my post, I see it could be taken either way, depending on the way it was read .

Kona,

The idea that there is only one truth (and that the speaker only is in posession of it) is responsible for far more evil than any other human action in history.

Faith in God is only between God and the believer. I am not answerable to you for my belief, nor are you answerable to me. We are each only answerable to God, and only He may judge the worth of our actions.

Also, depending on your point of view, the earth and the human body certainly aren't perfect at all, let alone too perfect. Quite a bit of both systems are compromises between various subsystems. Again, God and evolution are *not* mutually exclusive concepts. It is entirely possible, and entirely likely, that both are truth.

By the way, you may have noticed that you had post #666