@ Jafo

Thanks a lot, GM-- I had that button too...now it's gone.

#18  by  IPlural - 6/17/2003 9:36:58 PM

Lady Akasha - 6/17/2003 9:13:33 PM well that was a contradictory email. not only that, it the equivaliant of a Square Knot being sent in the form of an email leaving some it seems to snatch at the sum of it's nexus? However--why can't an artist get an email that says 'it's awful' no one is 'that' great that everyone will think 'everything' they make is 'spectacular'. kind of presumptious of the sender wouldn't it be? or maybe describing the need to knock the artist down a knotch or two, closer to the lowers where they feel, for what ever the reason, they might reside? I'm sure every artist has had to experience a biting comment. oh, without a doubt... As they should... Why? Why should they? please explain this reasoning. it's humbling. who decides why or when someone should be humbled? please explain this reasoning also? ------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks good!

Lady Akasha - Why should an artist receive a not so favorable comment? Umm because there is no such thing as making something EVERYONE will like, or think is great. That is ridiculous! Why doesn't the person who thinks 'it sucks' have a right to say...'it sucks'?

instead of replying to this as a skin author, i am going to reply to this as a writer (ducks in case Jafo is around ). i use Word for this (build in spell checker) which helps

there are a couple of other sites i spend a lot of time where people write and upload short stories. this is a different skill to making skins, but it is still a creative person making "beautiful" things for fun, and sharing them for free.

i have written and upload a few stories myself, so feel i am qualified to comment

as here, it is common for an upload to get virtually no feedback or comment. since this has also happened to me, i tend to be sensitive about this, and if i have something to say, i make a point of saying it, so at least the author gets 1 piece of feedback

Lady Akasha, your point is fair. some of the works are not as good as others.

however, since i appreciate how much work it can take to produce something you are happy to upload and share i have a great respect for anyone who has done this.

so, if i feel that a story isn't very good, or is poorly constructed, or is simply not very clear, i will say so. but, i will say so in a polite and respectful manor. before commenting i ask "could i have done any better?"

with that in mind, if i say i don't like it, i strive to explain why, and where possible offer constructive criticism. i feel there is always more to learn, no matter who you are, or how good you are.

also, i try to separate out "good, but not to my taste" from "not good", since these are very different things.

so, my final reaction / comment on this is that there is no reason why a skin creator (or author) should not expect and get responses that say "i don't like it", or "there is a problem with it". however, this can be done:
* with respect, and appreciation for the hard work that the author put into this for free
* in a rude and unhelpful manor

i would hope that we can all agree that the first is far preferable, and the second is not to be encouraged.

Lady Akasha wrote: "Umm because there is no such thing as making something EVERYONE will like, or think is great. That is ridiculous! Why doesn't the person who thinks 'it sucks' have a right to say...'it sucks'?

And I am sorry, as much as I do like this site--there is little room for the TRUTH. If someone actually said, "This is really awful" to a fellow artist it would be uproar!"


I couldn’t have said it better myself. The hyper-sensitivity to anything negative (whether it’s constructive or not) around these parts is quite unfortunate.

As for those people who think it's right for someone to comment that a skin 'sucks', you obviously hold little pride in the work you do. When producing a skin over several weeks solid hard work which is then made available to download for free, it shouldn't be out of the question to expect a little respect. I don't mind if people don't like the final result, but it would be nice if they could at least acknowledge the hard work that went into it.

As creatives, we naturally hold a hightened sense of pride in our work, as it's something both very personal and very important to us. It's true that criticism isn't the easiest thing to swallow, and that ability only comes with experience, but outright bad manners never get any easier to accept. You put your heart and soul into producing something that you hope will bring pleasure to people, only to have someone turn around and spit in your face. I don't think I'd ever want to accept that sort of behaviour.

Orion...nothing 'wrong' about the 'truth'.

But what IS wrong is some inane comment such as 'this sux', or for that matter 'this rox'.

What 'would' be quite OK would be 'I really dislike this' [perhaps with reasons].

Ideals would see a commensurate effort in critique to the work's creation effort/s.

Some poor sod of a skinner toils for weeks over his first WB skin just for the benefit of some no-brain dweeb to post 'this sux'?

How 'unfortunate' is that?...

#36 by JourneyMan grayhaze - 6/18/2003 5:43:34 AM #11 by Admin KarmaGirl - 6/17/2003 6:46:19 PM grayhaze, why can't you just believe that you are not god's gift to skinning? Geez...what an ego! KarmaGirl runs quickly away so that she doesn't get smacked with a dead trout by grayhaze...yes, and I was joking in case anyone didn't understand.. Don't make me hurt you... grayhaze readies a live trout for extra comedic effect

 

oohhhhh...nobody expects a *live* trout!

37 by JourneyMan grayhaze - 6/18/2003 5:52:06 AM As for those people who think it's right for someone to comment that a skin 'sucks', you obviously hold little pride in the work you do.

I completely 100% disagree on that statement. What does someone having the right to say they utterly dislike a piece have to do with one having or not having pride in their work?

If an artist is so proud of their work, and then one person decides 'it's awful' and that person is so overcome by this statement we have either one of two things. Either that artist DIDN"T have very much pride/confidence to begin with or if they're in such uproar over it--they need a reality check and come back down to earth.

Find what there is to be learned from it. Sure hearing 'it sucks' can sting quite hard. After the feeling of being insulted wears off, look at the design see what can be improved.

Freedom of speech is everyone's right. Manners or approach have no factor in said law. Of course tact, manners, and approach should be handled correctly--but reality is that isn't always so.

it shouldn't be out of the question to expect a little respect.

You're right it shouldn't. Of course it would be nice if all the long hours of work is appreciated because creation of ANY kind is more than just hard work, there's a little piece of that artists heart and soul in that design, whatever it may be. I agree with you. However, it shouldn't be assumed that it is 'owed.' Again that is where my little word can come into play again...."Humble"

You put your heart and soul into producing something that you hope will bring pleasure to people, only to have someone turn around and spit in your face. I don't think I'd ever want to accept that sort of behaviour.

"spit in your face" a little intense, isn't it? If an artist of any genre gets a statement such as "I think its quite bad.Sorry don't see why you're so popular" (these are JUST examples of comments) is that a 'spit in the face'? I don't think so. It would suck to recieve such a comment, and yep that sting would cause discomfort. HOWEVER it's not a spit in the face--it's a comment simply stating you're not 'that' good in this being's opinion.

Would it be nice if that person who felt that a work 'sucks' used tact and manners? ABSOLUTELY! And naturally we'd all prefer that. Who wouldn't! But again, I have to stress people DO have a right to say they don't like something in anyway they see fit.

It should be a learning experience, and hopefully grounding.

Candid comments are not so common here as I mentioned before, and in truth-- that's a shame. Because at some other sites it does get pretty candid at times--and it can be not only humbling but a growing experience. Often one says "Ouch that hurt!" but there's something to be learned from everything.

Lady Akasha - If an artist is so proud of their work, and then one person decides 'it's awful' and that person is so overcome by this statement we have either one of two things. Either that artist DIDN"T have very much pride/confidence to begin with or if they're in such uproar over it--they need a reality check and come back down to earth.

i feel i have to respond to this. you seem to be making the assumption that when an artist (lets say me, since i know how i feel) uploads something to this site, then i must be quite confident in it.

what is the basis for this assumption? i have written a small and simple DX plugin which a couple of kind people are testing for me. when i have polished it a bit more i am planning on uploading it.

however, this is my first (and so far only) DX plugin. i am NOT "deeply confident" about it, but it does what it is supposed to do on at least 2 machines. i don't consider that a good basis for excessive confidence in it. perhaps i am just a very sensitive person *shrug*

so, if after uploading i get 2 comments, one saying it is very useful, and one rude one saying it is crap, what am i to think?

should i get up on my high horse, and decide to ignore the bad comment since i "know" that my work is flawless and wonderful? that would be the very egotism that people seem to object to.

should i ignore all comments from people who have never themselves written a plugin, since they aren't "qualified to appreciate my work"? if so, then why am i bothering to upload (share) it in the first place?

perhaps this is simply a matter of perspective, but i don't really see where you are coming from.

is it "wrong" of me to hope that if my plugin helps some people they will respond with a few kind words??? after all, that is the only payment i am expecting to get here.

Aye did I get myself in a pickle or what? (not that doesn't mean that I take back anything I said.)

First off, GRAYHAZE let me say this before anything else. "My points were not neccessarily a jab at you. I don't know you enough to do that. Two, your incident is as I mentioned before; This person was obviously very contradictory. Secondly, the fact that they did that via email rather than on the actual comments section strikes me as odd. But then again some people do that I suppose--I get a lot of comments on my work via email instead. I'm not neccessarily (can't spell that word for beans) validating this person in particular.
My statements were generalized about artists not being able to handle negative feedback all too often.

#44 by Jafo - 6/18/2003 11:36:57 PM Lady Akasha....you misinterpreted the quote in #37....grayhaze said that if a person is happy to comment that another person's work sucks then the commenter hasn't pride in his OWN work, or else he would not belittle the efforts of others so readily....at least that's my interpretation of his comment...

Maybe I did, that is quite possible. And if so, my bad, and I'm sorry.

Remember....'any way they see fit' includes some quite juicy language which could make a hardenned Marine blush....and that 'right' they very definitely do NOT have on this site...

That is very true, I can't argue that. However, I think it's safe to say that I don't support such verbal expression or language as by my own commenting during my time here, has NEVER been brash or inappropriate. I've always been respectful and the like, my actions speak for itself. I am always respectful and 'try' to be encouraging and say nice things. As just like you folks I hope for the same thing in return.

However, I don't think there is a thing so proposterous about me saying that getting negative feedback CAN BE HUMBLING! and even SHOULD BE HUMBLING! I AGREE with all your statements about the hard work, the heart, the time that goes into making the work and such things should be taken into consideration before blurting out a nasty statement. ALL AGREED! But I am saying that isn't always the reality!

There is this atittude of viewers/uses have less rights to an opinion if they are not an artist themself. *rattles head* Ummm the viewers are the ones that come here all the time, pay for their subscriptions to get the skins, walls, icons,etc. Because they've never broken down and made a skin, they can't say "I'm sorry I just don't like it--it doesn't look very good." Well, now that persons statement holds no value--their not a skinner. I'm sorry I've heard such statements on several occassions and I don't agree with that and never will. That's like saying a patient can't say their doctor isn't very good because he doesn't know how to do surgery.

Let's say a citizen makes a post and says; "I was browsing through the selection of skins, I was hoping for something a bit dramatic and very artistic. Everthing seems nice, but rather bland..." Let's be real, that citizen would get STOMPED over here. Because he said most of the work is bland. Why doesn't he have that right? If that is what he/she feels why is it not ok to say that? I'm not saying "like it", keep that in mind.

My whole point is that, I just think people should have the right to say they don't like something if they don't, without being considered a nimwit. If an artist CHOSES to post their works on a world wide web, making it open for feedback they ARE giving the open public such freedoms, then they should be able to handle it diplomatically. I agree a statement such as 'this sucks' isn't the most intellectual of statements, I AGREE. But if that's what they feel they do have that right. (I am NOT speaking of speech that would "make a marine blush") Which that statement in itself if you think about it is quite isulting and politically incorrect. That's insulting the couth of all marines, if you think about it.

OK...language that would make a motor-race official blush, then.....[and I've been one for 30 years so I can vouch for their/our usual lurid eloquence]....mustn't upset the Marines....fragile as they are....