Isreal always makes it on the list somehow...

jtb - to get a really good answer to that question, it's best to review world history centering around the (re)creation of the state of israel (if you can find a solid, unbiased historian). the allied countries had heard strong rumors about what might be happening to the Jews during the war, but when the allied armies were liberating the concentration camps the shock and horror of what can happen to a people who have no land of their own to be safe in went beyond belief. it was a very emotionally charged issue way back then and that hasn't changed. having helped form an international concensus on the need to create such a state, it's altogether normal to support its continued existence after it's created, even if you have philosophical fights with that state.
i readily admit that i've forgotten most of my detailed history around that turbulent epoch, and will say no more.

I am not anti-semitic, not by a long shot. I do, however, have doubts about the existence of the state of Israel, or at least how they are accomplishing it. I know the US has played a large part, and I don't excuse that. I'm not gonna really go into it here since it is such an emotionally charged topic to so many people, but I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinian people.

Their use of terror to make their case to the world is inexcusable, though, and I in no way feel that the acts are just. Actually, i think very little terror these days has anything to do with Palestinians or religion. Terrorism is a huge business, supporting millions of employees and billions in funds. Once you get an organization that big, the point becomes the organization. That's why Hamas, Hezbollah and the rest will never allow peace in the Middle East. They will murder anyone who could be successful at accomplishing it. Would be bad for business.

I have stayed out of this up until now, because I am biased because of my Job. As some of the folks here already know I'm a U.S. Marine and because of that, my view is a little off of the norm. Now that being said, I'm sitting on my butt in southern Japan, wishing that I was with old friends in Saudi Arabia. Why you might ask, because I'm and Evil War monger... Nope, Because I think War is great..... Nope, Because of the People..... Yep. I'm not only referring to my fellow service men, but the people of Iraq. For those of you that have had no contact with those of us that serve, allow me to try and explain. First we all joined to serve our country but in the end we fight for those on our right and our left. Second, If you ask 99.9% of all service people of any free nation which they would rather be doing, shooting rounds down range or handing out food. I think that you will find that helping others would win every day of the week. It does not matter if it is helping woeman and children get clean drinking water, building a school so that the kids can learn, building a clinic to heal the sick, carrying food to the needy. And we do not care what color, creed, faith, height, race that people are helping wins out every time. If you listen and watch closely to the news reports about service members not having enough to eat, and wonder why, because there is a problem with the supply train.... not realy, because a young child just went running home with a couple of MRE's in his hands, and your getting warmer.

To each and every person who does not believe in this War, I will never even attempt to change your view, or to take away your right to protest this war. Why, because that is your right in a free country. All I ask is that you protest the war and Not the soldiers fighting it. There is a difference. Try to remember that there is not one country that is Free that the blood of soldiers was not spilled to make it that way. I made my choice 18 1/2 years ago to serve my country, that is my choice, just as some of you have made the choice to not serve.... That is your right. Now think of those in Iraq that are being told that if they do not get out and fight their children will face a bullet in the head. One childs life is worth 100 adults, for the children are all of our future.

Oh well that is my point of view, and feel free to flame me all you wish, but guess what, you have as much a chance of changing how I feel as I do of changing yours.

Grog aka Chris

I don't think it is anti-semetic to desagree with Sharon's policies. I think if they could show the Palestinian people that they want to help them then maybe there would be some kind of movement.

and yes bakerstreet, the mititias likeHamas would do anything to stay in power. Its like the mafia, the neighborhood people love the gifts and the parties and the fireworks, but behind the scenes is rackaterring, volience and death.

As extreme as the Palestianian issue is, I see many similarities to poor minorities of the early 1940's to th 70's. Poor, hard to get educated, easier to do crime; outcast. Then is a crime is comitted where are the police? Who are the judges? You find yourself trying to make money to have something.. anything. Hamas pays those who kill themsevles. All of a sudden the family is honored, there is cash in the house and a chance to have something; at least for a little while.

What is even worst is that the militas do not have any direction other than to kill. What are there policies? How would they govern? What if someone disagrees? Do they blow themsevles up to make a point?


I do believe that Isreal though, should stop the settlements that everyone knows are being paid through the government.. While it is possible that the 1969 borders of Isreal is tnot enough, there has to be a limit of the expansion.


I think there is a way to peace, there has to be some pride sacraficed for it though... and you know men in power don't like that.

about the food being given to the Iraqis.

hey paxx, I hope your still here. could you post the links of the news websites you use to get news?

Hopefully it will be in english.

Respect to Grog!

Israel is a tacky situation. I'm not getting into that, if only because that would probably be seen as either anti-Americanism or anti-Semitism.

Oh hell, can't resist. Someting I picked up somewhere. Interesting theory, but feel free to disagree (it's merely a theory).

There's a lot of Messianistic Christianity in the US: the idea that Jesus will return sometime soon. But one of the prerequisites of this is that his return is linked in some way (can't recall what exactly) to the existence of the state of Israel. This is one of the reasons why it has US-backing.

Alright, I admit, the levels of "conspiracy theorism" are through the roof here.

JTB: funny quote.

About the US support of Israel, here is a quote from Truman:
"I'm sorry, gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism: I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents."

On a side note, why do we call the anti-jews "anti-semitic"?
The word "semitic" refers to that people with a tan skin, native of the Middle-East. There are indeed some semitic jews (usually refered to as "Sephardic") but most jews are not semitic at all, but European ("referd to as "Ashkenazi"). While all arabs are semitic. Weird even that we would even ever refer to Arabs as anti-semitic.

Sounds like Semitic semantics to me......

Alright, just copy/paste this URL: www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,927055,00.html

That is the best example of what UN should be for.

But wait, the UN is meaningless now so the US should take its place, right?

Frankly, I don't think there is any chance for democracy on that region. Even if the US made Iraq the 51st state of America.