W.Bush always intended to invade Iraq. The invasion is just finishing up on unfinished family business. H.Bush et.al. are driving W.Bush. Look at all the family cronies in his administration and you'll see H.Bush is still running the U.S. through his boy. W.Bush really doesn't have a clue as to how to administer a country like the U.S. I believe that W.Bush is more like a small boy playing with a soldier play set. A true bully. WMD? I think that's a convienent excuse to finish the family business. (At least for everyones sake I hope so.) Ah, me. You just have to have lived in Texas, U.S.A. to really know the truth about the Bush family.
On another note, I do support our troops and wish them God Speed to victory and to protect them from harm so that they can come home.
Old Crabs 2 1/2 cents. >

ha ha ha... that's balogna... where have you been... why don't you come back to america... this isn't about some bush family legacy... this is about our people... bush is protecting us... I don't know what rock you've been under... but 2 years ago people saddam funded flew airplanes into two of the biggest buildings in the country... this war is about sticking our foot up iraq's butt... for everything they've done....

ignorant people??? you speak of something you have little knowledge of, and you speak of ignorance???? it's too bad you can't understand that this isn't about bush, he doesn't declare war, congress does. did he appoint the members of congress??? no!!! more people than just him wanted this war... obviously congress did... or else they wouldn't have declared war... and sadam did have the weapons he spoke of... Saddam needs to be stoped and as America it is our job to do it.

My post was in response to post #999 by the rightous Da_zman

Ah, me. You need a dictionary and a grammar primer. The U.S. has not declared war on Iraq, the U.S. is enforcing U.N. Resolution 1441. Besides I do believe Hussiens mighty battle fleet with aircraft carriers, his grand air force with stealth technology, and his highly trained professional army, have gone south for the winter. I'm almost sure that all his nuclear ballistic missles have been shot toward Washington too. America is not now, nor should it ever be, the worlds policeman. Get your facts correct, and don't just sprout dogma or propaganda; it belittles any argument.

And as a American, Old Crab, you should support what the US isa trying to accomplish: The removal of Saddam and the reigme from power.

kona: actually China *could* stop us, at any time, with ease. As could a half dozen other world powers. That is actually the reason the whole 'anti-war' stance by most of the world is such a laugh. At any time they could prevent us from doing it. We would never risk open war with China, or even ( *yuck yuck* ) France. Most of the resistance to what we want to do in Iraq is grandstanding, and the rest is greed.

Read post 1028 again kona0197. As an American I'll support whomever I feel like supporting. Who'll stop us? Well as History has proved time and again - mighty Empires have been falling by the side of the roadway since history has been recorded. It seems as if people have forgotten that the U.S. has already taken out the terrorists that bombed us on 9/11. Remember Afghanistan? Usama Bin Ladin is the target as well as the Taliban. We took care of the WTC bombers already. Iraq is a different scenerio altogether. I just refuse to run around like chicken little crying that the sky is falling and that there is a terrorist in every bush. War and the treasury of the U.S. can't afford all these bush wars that crop up every so often. The U.S. will end up like Israel fighting everybody and no one. I'm going to bed, this is a useless waste of time. >

Looking at it honestly without emotional triggers on my part being allowed to play a part in considering things.

The USA has been burning the candle at both ends for many years now, the CIA has done what was asked of it over the years. But the thing is, operations and operatives did not always work under presidential decree. They did as ordered and they totally bought into the game as a team player, which they should have, they did what they did for their country as ordered. Even though many times it was from higher Higher that the orders rolled down and not the white house.

Mush of the time from what I have read and from the documentaries I have watched, a president would ask a director of the CIA if they could take care of a specific issue. Not the means in which they would do it, but could they make the problem go away, only to be told yes, of course. Then the director would go back and turn it over to those below him and it would roll down hill.

The bay of pigs for instance, history has been written that it was an action to free the cuban people from Castro's oppression. When in fact it was nothing more than an action taken to attempt putting Castro out so the farms and assets of one large corporation would be lost. It turned out to be a totally screwed up mess that President Kennedy ended up having to eat as his own mistake politically. Did he go along with it, yes from the beginning, was he ensured of it's success without question, yes again. Did he and the american people end up with egg on their faces, yep...

It was things like that in part and much worse, which in the end bought the USA a really nasty image on a global scale. Industry also had a part in it, Bhopal and other instances where a number of people ended up dead because of lousy safety measures to keep costs down, or not having the skilled labor in key positions to ensure safety and maintenance of critical safety equipment. Also missionaries, of all things have had some negative influence in some areas, where they went to do good for people and did, but forgot to not push their religion at the same time. Those two young girls in Afghanistan who faced death for instance. They were there in a Muslim nation to help the people, which was a very good thing. They were not there to push Christianity, which was a foolish thing, you do not go to someone else's nation which is of a different religion and push your religion or you chance ending up in the same exact position that they found themselves.

They were told, they were warned, they were directed not to do such, and yet they handed out ( even on request from the person they gave the books too ) Christian story books. SOrry to say, religious freedom was not part of the structure, they knew it, and they knew they were doing wrong... They are extremely lucky they are not dead because of those mistakes.

But their actions only fed into the Islamic/Muslim image of the USA attempting to destroy Islam all the same. Those people do not remember history, they live it, life is living history, or living is the act of continuing the history of the people.

I think that is one thing that we miss which is going to really cause some real problems in the future. To us history is the past, something to look at, maybe learn from but always the past and nothing more. To them history is a living breathing thing which all of them and those they interact with are a part of. I do not know why we can not grasp that concept really.

Consider this, who has ever heard that the Bible is a living book? I know from talking/chatting with friends in Israel that the Torah is considered a living thing and so is history, it has to be, because it is what proves that the Torah is alive.

So if the Bible is a living thing, constantly evolving, growing, expanding, how could past, present, future history not be?

I think this is one of the key tactical errors the administration has made also. People are returning to Iraq who left because they despised living under Saddam's thumb and his oppression, they return to fight for Iraq against the invaders, not for Saddam. I am not so sure it is patriotism as we know it which drives them, but more of a combination of religion, faith, belief, living history and ideology, wrapped up into one complete package which we've not completely grasped because it is so foreign to us that it never crossed our minds, let alone the administrations.

I also feel that one of the key things about the USA giving humanitarian support to others, only to find they harbor some real distaste for the USA while holding out their hands is this.

The USA never, ever does anything without knowing what they will get in return, and they do expect something in return, always...

Ive heard people say that those outside our nation hate us because of many different reason, but never really ever read or heard anyone approach the facts without the emotional, patriotic, stance and opinions based beyond the simplistic " their jealous, they hate our success, they despise our freedom, etc ".

What if it is so dynamic and each part of it is so simple we totally over look it, or put it out of mind because it seems so silly to us, or we find it so simplistically outrageous we do not consider it worth considering?

Example: They are learning to hate us because we refuse (for whatever reason) to take on the responsibility of being the one true single national super power left on this planet. ( we should never forget that a world combined has been shown to be the one true super power above all others, we really shouldn't forget that)

We pay farmers to not plant while people on this planet starve to death, we allow corporations to blast. dig, drill and destroy at an unknown rate (unknown to us at least) to pull gold, diamonds, silver, hard woods, etc, the natural resources of other nations, many what are considered 3rd world nations, leaving the people to starve while the local corporate rep's and government officials live fat and call that business, and in some instances some will even go as far as calling that nation building when in fact all it is in the end is raping a nation while some criminals who are paid off to allow it to happen oppress their people all in the name of the mighty dollar. We use one nation to fight wars with another only to turn around and turn on that nation we've just used when it suits us, or we find they have gone to far, but what influence did we play in creating the monster in the first place? We can not just sluff it off and not take responsibility for it.

I am not saying we must make amends, and do three hail marys, bend to the east and ask forgiveness of God or whom have you. But take responsibility in the act of not continuing to do it, if the process is broken in one instance it pretty much is probably broken in all others, besides who can we chance it to not be broken? Then again, it is something we have done a number of times, and doing the same exact thing and expecting different results is insaine...

There are many different reason why the world holds out one hand palm up and the other as a raised fist.
Our own teenagers do it and it confuses the hell out of us even with them, though it is on a different level but leaves us with the same confusion in the end and with the same exact question "Why"...

Who here is of the belief that only so many people can react to you in a negative manner while you state it's them before one has to ask, what might it be about me?

WHat I mean is, I've read one person in particular and a couple of different ones since I've lowered the genetic make up of this board state something along the lines of, People always react to me in this manner (my editing, but same meaning) and all I can think,though I do not state it is " If everyone reacts to you in the same manner, maybe you need to take a good look at yourself, or how you communicate with others? They can not all be jerks or heartless, or stupid, mean, ignorant, fill in the blank "...

Well, may be we need to drop everything emotional or otherwise and look at things separately and as a whole and admit our failings, we do not have to beg forgiveness, we do not even have to say a damn thing about it to others, which would be pointless anyway, but to act upon those things which we find as truly wrong on our part as people and a nation, and make positive change on our part, and you know what? Screw them if they can not accept that as enough because it is all we can or could do and to expect more would be ignorant and wrong of them, which is all on them, they would own those things...

America, yeah I love it, the people, the beauty, it's heart and soul...
But I know just how dark and evil things, people you love can be and I also know that people do not formulate hate and despise others without some basis of truth buried at the nexus of it all. Denial gets us no where positive or desirable, it has gotten us terrorist attacks and war, but I do not feel sliding to the negative end of the bar is a result worth accepting as something which others own completely, we own some of it, we just need to figure out what and either change it, drop it in the trash can or accept it and defend it on the plausible points if we can..

anyway, back to being quiet and ineffectually pointless

ps: Yeah I love America, and it does in fact piss me off to read online, in newspapers and hear on TV about how people hate the USA... totally...

I'm seriously thinking about joining the Navy. Maybe I can help instead of complaining about the problem.

kona is it an option... my son went coast guard right after turning 17 and he likes it for the most part, though with Navy your pulling long stints deep water from what I understand.

Actually that is an option you might want to look at also, home defense is needing a lot of people and the coast guard need a whole bunch. Port security, boarding crews, interdiction, they've even got a few of the cutters the size of my sons ship over in the gulf pulling those duties with tankers and such. They have fast boats with dual 50's, heck on my sons ship they have the dual gattling gun anti missle defense systems on each side along with multipule 50's at different locations and a double helio pad on the back, automatic 7 inch cannon turrent. Not a Aircraft Carrier, of Missle cruiser granted, but not something I would snub my nose at if all I had was a wellcraft and 600 pounds of TnT either...

I love the points you make. You should run for office. Start making the wrongs right for us all.

IT is, though I'm not to sure about the Alaskan Sea in storm season or riding out Hurricanes

Though, I m betting even that is a blast when you look back on it