US is going to war tomarrow... dang...

~Paxx, you wrote:
"There's no denying that. I don't know where you saw that they've been executed, I haven't heard that anywhere. Apparently they were attacked by Iraki troops, they engaged in combat, some were killed, some were taken prisoners"

Here the reports are:
"While an Iraqi smiled at the camera over the bodies and shifted them to better display the wounds, the tape showed what is purported to be U.S. Marines in U.S. military attire lying on the floor with serious head and torso wounds -- many execution style."

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paxx

Join Date 03/2001

0

bakerstreet, in the end, I tend to be an optimist and believe in good will. Go figure.
One other thought about the POWs. In 1991, if memory serves me right, the prisoners were held in the actual Palace, or at least in Bagdad anyway, where they were detained by the presidential guards. This time they are being held in a what seem to be a secondary city. Again, Icould be wrong, but maybe those gards are not as blood thirsty as Saddam's immediate army.

Xerraire: well, that's interpretation. As I said, the French CBC broadcasted live the footage, and while I did see blood in the face and on the body of the soldiers, I would say that saying they were executed is a broad interpretation. After all, we don't know al the details of the attack, there could have been grenades used or such, in which case wounds all over the body are possible. I'm not saying they haven't been executed, I just say that from the images I saw, I saw nothing that shows that.

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paxx

Join Date 03/2001

0

On the other hand, I must voice my disappointment concerning something disturbing I saw on TV. They were showing American/British/Aussie (I don't know which they were) fireing some sort of rocket on a building. And then then all cheered in wooo-hooos and yipeeeeas when the target blew up. I hope, I pray, that it was a practice target they knew was unhabited...

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paxx

you don't have any disappointment to express regarding Iraq burning up their oil wells on purpose, or their fake surrenders, or their car bombs aimed at journalists?
or is this behavior you expected from the iraqis?

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well you've got a sniper or a number of people firing upon you from a building and someone hits it with a Javelin rocket and the shooting stops. What they supposed to do, boo? I mean seriously?

I can understand your abhorrence of war and such, hell I'm the same, but I am not going to forget that they are the ones doing the shooting and being shot at long enough to judge them for celebrating being the one left living in a do or die situation...

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Paxx, in 1991 the prisoners were turned over to the Iraqi secret police, not known for their gentle manners, for interrogation.

That target you mention was not a practice nor a civilian target. That building held Iraqi soldiers firing on the Marines trying to kill them. What you saw was one small part of an approximately 4 hour firefight. In the end some Iraqis surrendered and prisoners were taken. The prisoners were not shown on TV. Neither were there scenes of Marines jubliantly showing off the bodies of dead Iraqis, acts when done by Iraqis against Americans soldiers don't appear to disturb you quite as much.

Scenes perhaps you haven't seen...in another part of Iraq an air attack on an Iraqi position firing at coalition forces called off because the Iraqi soldiers had surrounded themselves with the locals to serve as human shields. The efforts to minimize civilian casualties increase the risk for the coalition soldiers. Infantry will have to go in to try to selectively target the soldiers while trying to avoid civilian casualties. Much simpler, quicker and safer for them to say, "it's war and people die" and take out the threat the easy way by air. But they didn't.

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Has anyone seen a link on-line to the video itself?

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paxx

Join Date 03/2001

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If they were being sot at by snipers from that building, I understand the necessity of shooting it down. I just found the cheers a bit much. But I understand this is war, as I understand the survival instinct takes over in such times. I understand it, but it still is disturbing.

Hey, people. I'm not saying the Iraki are good guys there. I guess that's war is: you fight for your life.
As for the oil wells, wouldn't you do the same, placed in the same situation? I think it's understandable behavior.

Oh, and I have indeed seen Iraki prisoners on TV, hands on their head and all.

Anyway. War is ugly.

On a side note, here is an example of how the coverage of the war may be different from one contry to the other. Click on this link to the french canadian channel: http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/special/nouvelles/irak/irak/index.shtml. Nevermind the text, I know most don't understand French, but just look at the header of the page, top right. That's the image the channel chose to represent that war.

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paxx

Join Date 03/2001

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Hum, the link above doesn't work because it included my end of sentence period in the URL.
Try this instead http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/special/nouvelles/irak/irak/index.shtml , or just remove the period at the end.

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For my part, paxx
I jump around to all newspaper sites. I am very international, having lived abroad, married with a man from Spain, and have friends everywhere. I didn't have that link, thanks.

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i found the link you meant anyway

nothing an internet savvy lady couldn't find

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very true paxx, I noticed a bit ago that a ferry9?) got hit by a missle, they are claiming it was US, I hope not....

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

It is still believed that "showing images of the soldiers violated the Geneva Conventions, which prohibits subjecting prisoners of war to humiliating treatment."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/23/sprj.irq.aldouri/index.html

I haven't seen any of these images, and I'm fine with that. I think it's disrespectful when they show images of any person that has been killed (especially if their family has not been notified). I wish we could go back to the days when news wasn't so instant.

sig101, what's new about the Iraqi military using their people for human shields? it's just another example of how mistreated the people are in that country. They know that the US doesn't want to harm civilians, so they use them as protection.

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In the mean time,
US TROOPS CAPTURE CHEMICAL PLANT >> http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/PrinterFull&cid=1048389497622

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not a ferry but a bus

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Yes, Paxx, coverage may be a bit different from country to country. I saw a press conference a couple days ago where the Iraq minister of information insisted that no Iraqi soldiers have surrendered: according to him, the Americans were kidnapping civilians and dressing them in Iraqi uniforms for the cameras. He said the press that said soldiers were surrendering were all lying. And other things which defied belief or were clearly not so. He also said that there were over 200 civilian casualties as a result of the bombing of Baghdad. I then saw an interview of a French journalist where he mentioned civilian casualties. When asked if he had gone to the hospital to see for himself the injured civilians since the press had been invited to do so, he said that he had not. He said, "The Minister of Information said so, so obviously it must be true."

About the prisoners, as mentioned previously the ones you likely saw soldiers who surrendered without engaging in combat. They are not treated the same as those soldiers who engage in combat and are then taken prisoner as enemy prisoners of war (EPOW's). Apparently, those who lay down their arms without fighting are detained, will be checked out and then let go. Those who have engaged in combat are treated as formal EPOW's and the press is not supposed to film them. At least that is according to the reporters who are there.

How is it understandable to torch the oil wells? What purpose does it serve? Militarily or otherwise? The troops don't rely on that oil for supply. It has an ecological impact and if they destroy the wells en masse, it effects Iraq more immediately than anyone as that is its major product and the Iraqis have to live there. Was it similarly understandable for them to torch the Kuwaiti oil fields as they retreated from Kuwait?

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and don´t forget we are told that Basra and Um Kasar are conquered since thursday evening every few hours. not true until now ...

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how does torching the oil serve military purpose? Oh, turning day into night, making it so night vision can not work correctly, put the oppisition into as much discomfort as possible, mind games, many different things. I am not saying it is right or a choice I would make, of course I am not facing the allies either so I can not say for sure what I would do, but it does have it's function's on a military position...

Same as using Agent Orange and defoliation in jungles, or 20,000 pound plus conventional bombs, or cluster bombs, mines, flame throwers, cannons, all the chemical and bio weapons we the USA have in storage, many different things that seem so mindless, have a purpose in war...

just my pov...

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I doubt very much that Ecology, the clean up / impact or the bank account mean much to the Iraqi military or leaders...

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paxx

Join Date 03/2001

0

sig: wether prisonners surrender or are taken after a combat, they are still prisonners. I've seen them walk with their hands on their head in front of US/UK soldiers with guns behind them. Obviously they weren't being told they could go home.

As far as the oil wells, I say it's understandable because for them the oil is why the US is attacking in the first place. They are basically saying "You want the oil? Well, there! Now nobody can get them." Not exactly a very nice intelligent thought, but understandable when you know you're going to lose the war. Of course, it's as mature as sticking your tongue out, but I can hardly condemn it.

Hum, I don't know about the 200 casualties. I heard that Bagdad claimed there has been 7 dead, but that was after the first night of bombing only. It may be more now. Dunno.

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paxx
your condemnation (you can't condemn iraq with the oil wells)
seems only aimed at americans. I don't think I am the only one that is getting that feeling here...

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Xerraire...paax is a rare person, one who stands by his convictions.
He is entitled to his opinions, which are better informed than 99% of the other posts on this board.

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paxx

Join Date 03/2001

0

Xerraire, I don't condemn anyone.
All I was pointing was that US had also shown POWs on camera. That's all.
The only other comment I made was concerning cheers from soldiers after blowing up a building. Was just pointing that it made me uneasy, as if I was watching people play a video game, not killing people.

I also said that War is ugly. It kills people. On all sides. War is Ugly. I hate war, I hate people dying. Any people.

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wombat, i thought i was worth more than 1%.

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DavidK

Join Date 03/2001

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Does anybody remember the videos of Afghan prisoners? Remember Johnny Walker Lindh and the interviews, the video of him being undressed, his bullet wounds and the fact that he was vilified before the whole world. Yes it's hypocritical but the American position about the prisoner videos is expected, as is the very pro-American news coverage. To expect anything else would be naive.

America will present their side in their press and the Iraqi's will try to get their own perspective shown. Several journalists have quit in protest over being "embedded" with military units. They feel they can't see or tell the truth because they are led away from areas they want to report on.

The bus of civilians that was hit by a rocket fired from an American warplane is another perfect example of what war does. I haven't heard any details other than it was one of those big buses crammed full of Syrian nationals trying to get to a safe place on the Syrian border, and probably all of them were killed. There is also the group of journalists that was fired on by an American tank, apparently because some Iraqi soldiers where trying to surrender.

The embarrassing stories won't get much play, the victories will probably be somewhat exaggerated, the horror will be blamed on someone else or an equipment failure. It's to be expected.

I believe the American forces truly endeavor to minimize civilian casualties. But this is war and every soul that dies, civilian or military, is human. We are engaging in the most horrible enterprise that mankind has ever invented. There is no glory now, only tragic death and suffering inflicted on men, women and children by members of their own species.

It is never a victory to take a life. No matter what the reason or justification. It is only one thing when death is the answer to a situation. It's a complete failure of reasoning, diplomacy, education and conscience. It's a complete failure of competence to have to kill other human beings. And for that, we have all miserably failed as people. There is no glory, only shame.

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