glad you got a taste of the good life in game 3 at least.  I know it can be a real bummer losing any placement games... especially due to... horrible things.  Hopefully the wins keep coming in.  I tend to think the one thing that would really suck for you is lower elo games with less skilled teammates.  You don't generally do carry or assassin junglers, so you end up going in needing at least some level of competence.  Same thing at other elos, I suppose, but I know I found games in silver/low gold so much more difficult than what I'm dealing with now anyway.  Hoping you shoot right through the placement.  I do believe they changed how the weight of games works at least.  Previously if you blew your 1st 2 games, you were boned - you take a huge dip on your mmr and then you can only fluctuate like 1-2 tiers or so.  I think it changed so the 1st game is still heavily weighted but then they spread it out so its not a wash if lose the 1st couple.  I'm hoping for gold 2 or 1 for you in initial placement so its at least a short grind.  Good luck!

Re: Gold Digger Supports

Pacov, I'm fine with you thinking outside the box and open minded to the idea that the pros might outweigh the cons with your GP/10 strat.  However it is very frustrating when you get upset with my performance in lane when you're running an experimental rune setup.

I went on Reddit to get some input from other players from outside our group of friends on how much your rune choices effect our ability to win our lane, get CS, etc.  I also asked for advice on how I can adjust to this style of Support that you're using.

The responses were varied.  From "Wow, another bad ADC blaming his Support for getting outplayed." to... well, I don't think you're going to enjoy reading what a Challenger player said. 

Anyway, here's the link if you're interested on seeing some different perspectives on the subject.

https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/3m3lis/being_trolled_by_a_friend/

A few quick thoughts - sorry you feel like i was being critical of you, thunder - thought I mentioned to you I was trying to work on that and I think I've actually been good for the most part lately anyway.  Title of your reddit thread is "being trolled by a friend."  hmm.  While I think its cool to discuss and get feedback from other folks, the only thing I really find fault with is the way you are taking things.  Totally OK to be annoyed if I'm complaining or busting your chops.  Less cool in my mind when you are deciding, before a lane phase has even begun, that a rune decision I'm making is hurting you and setting you back.  Not like I'm perfect at that (I see a quinn jungle, for instance, I'm annoyed instantly - that ended up with quinn carrying the shit out of the game).  Anyway, I'd still say let's see how the game goes and then make a decision.  I think you even alter your play style because you've decided you are boned just due to runes.  I could run all MR runes and probably do really well as a support... and I'm only running my setup on ranged supports. If that's trolling you, then I guess trolling = disagreeing.

I don't know... maybe just don't check my runes and play the lane like normal and see how it goes?  I think I've asked if you are lagging when we are both full hp and you are staying way back at turret, etc.  Maybe you are just deciding we can't do anything because I have gp/10 runes and you need to hug turret as a result.  At any rate, sorry you are having some residual bad feelings from whenever we played last.  I'm not looking to troll you, though. Really sorry you see it that way.  

A few more thoughts - ok - so I get going to with a click bait title to try to get more attention. You got some folks of higher elo to comment, so mission accomplished.  I just was a little sad thinking you thought I was trolling you (which to me, means I'm literally trying to screw you over or messing with you and feigning ignorance etc when my intention is to f with you). I think we sorted that out.  And the issue is summed up well by you not liking my rune setup for various reasons and then really not liking it when I'm asking or questioning what you are up to.  That 2nd point makes perfect sense to me and I get that will continue to try to not be negative, etc.  I do want to address this in your OP though:

"Please trust me, convincing him that these runes have a negative effect on my ability to help us win the lane is not an option. More people than just me have tried to explain that Support runes do make a difference for the ADC's laning experience and he simply refuses to believe that."

Let's clear this up.  My runes could have a negative impact effect on your ability to help us win the lane.  The problem with your statement is that you and anyone that agreed with the premise on reddit and/or among our pals aren't really keyed into a very important factor -  namely that it doesn't necessarily have a negative impact - and in my experience, rarely does.  The only concrete scenario you could come up with where it would be factor is another crappy hypothetical. Let's say it pacov (gold runes)/thunder bot vs pacov (more standard support setup)/thunder bot with no jungle intervention.  gold runes pacov has to play a little differently than non gold pacov which could potentially result in my adc getting zoned.  Could.  Or you can toss in the we're up against a substantially better bot lane (which I don't regularly experience and I doubt you do either).

All of that crap really boils down to how does gold rune pacov handle the lane - not the other 2 schmucks auto win lane regardless of their champs, skill level, chemistry.  If the common outcome is loss of lane or adc is harmed, its a bad idea.  As the guy running gold runes, I can tell you that's not typically what happens.  Anyway, if it was clear that gold rune pacov harmed his team more often than helped, I wouldn't go gold runes.  Not worth it then and obv a bad idea.

But summarizing - I recognize that gold runes could negatively impact your ability to win lane and I wouldn't use them if I believed it caused us problems.    

I tend to think of runes/masteries kind of the way some old games work.  You can pick from like 3 templates - 1 - good early, 2 - good mid, 3 - good late (obviously really simplifying).  I believe I'm a good enough support that I can trade off some stats for that common rune setup and still control the lane... also gaining the benefit of added gold generation resulting in stronger mid/late game game.  

Realistically, this enables me to be effective even if my adc is not.  There's your selfish angle.  It even enables me to do well for the team even if my adc is only doing so/so.  But - if my adc is doing well, it means an early zekes for him and incredibly strong snowball potential mid game (including drake control).  And the biggest thing, the trade off is generally decided in the 1st few minutes of the game.  

Oh - and the enemy team being hyper aggressive because of some perceived weakness is generally a pretty good opportunity that can be countered in my experience.  Being over aggressive tends to lead to less HP if properly handled... towards the aggressor.  It varies ofc, but imagine a support walking up to wail on me as thresh.  Pretty sure that enemy support will take a few shots from both me and my adc.

Anyway, I don't believe a gold rune setup is generally hurting my adc.  If, even semi consistently, the result of a gold rune setup was hurting my adc, I wouldn't use it.  Tell you what, though - next time we go bot, I'll run my setup and ask you to do just 1-2 things a little differently.  Give that a go.  We have a few games where you getting crushed in a row or hurt by me, I'll stop the gold runes for you, even though I don't believe its consistent.

700ish gold 20 minutes in isn't really that big a boost to your late game.  If you lose out on a couple kills because of your lower stats, you've more than burned the advantage already.

You're lessening your ability to affect the lane early, and hoping your skill will edge out over the disability from your gold generation.  All things being equal, it must result in a loss of some level in return, perhaps only a minion or two in farm, perhaps a death or a lost kill.  When it's on a champ that does beastly damage, like Sona, you're probably not going to recoup those losses from the passive gold, which is why I use my AP runes.  You can't play differently and make this go away, you're simply missing damage, defense, or both, and as such will lose out on trades compared to the results you'd otherwise see.

Ancient coin isn't trading damage for money, it's trading damage for sustain.  Damage for sustain is a big deal on how you play your champ.  You can take more damage and do less as a result of a sustain build, but use that sustain to erase the consequences, and continue to dish it out more.  It's all about only getting poked in return for a poke until you've got them low enough that you can take the all in and still plow them even with your inferior numbers.  Then when you're ahead, you can harass them out of the lane indefinitely.  If you fuck up against a team that can out poke, you get plowed and have an even harder time laning from behind.

You probably end up making more money with it as well, but that's just a sweet bonus.  With Zyra and a competent adc, I run a coin/2 ward start, out sustain the health pots, and run them out of lane first using the excellent range of well timed plant harass just about as fast as I make seeds to use.  I only get to do that because of how much mana regen I have, more gold wouldn't get me that.

OK, I'll chime in here.

The big issue is that pacov implements strategies without considering the big picture.

The macroscopic picture in this case is that the game is balanced around the fact that supports scale very poorly with gold (except for mages who just randomly go support like Lux/Annie/Brand), while other roles scale much better with gold.  Therefore, systematically shifting gold from other roles onto the support is a bad strategy assuming that everybody is roughly the same skill level.

In other words, if there is any cost to your actions where you are getting more gold on the support, its probably not worth it.  Yet your strategies consistently cost other roles pretty heavily.

Listen, your stuff where taking non optimal combat runes doesn't cost the adc anything is silly.  Everybody from the Challenger guy in that thread on downwards has said that if you don't take combat runes, its going to cost you.  You can't win a 2v2 against even skilled opponents (much less better opponents), so you have to play excessively safe, so your adc loses out on CS or kills.  I'll be blunt - your claims that not having a chunk of combat stats early on don't have any effect on the lane is pretty clearly cognitive bias.  It MUST have an effect - thats how numbers work.  The other team will simply do more damage to you.

So your strategy is systematically transferring gold from the adc to the support.  This is a bad strategy in general.  Now, you might claim that it makes sense if you believe that you are a better player than your teammates and need to carry from the support position, so it might be reasonable in solo queue ranked games.  But you shouldn't be running it in games where we are playing as a group unless you happen to think that you are substantially better than the rest of us.

And I think that this is the real issue - you are running a strategy which basically says "I need to do this because you guys suck".

Your insistence on split pushing more than pretty much every other support falls into the same category.  The idea that you need to grab gold to get support items is the opposite of high ELO thinking.  Supports don't need gold.  The best way they support their team isn't to get a small aura.  It is to be with the team and to simply be present and doing support things.  I miss out on A LOT of engage opportunities because we are short a person.

The thing with Pantheon last night was the same thing.  The whole point of playing Pantheon is that you can clear quickly and at full health with 1 health pot and you have a terrifying level 3 gank very quickly.  If you double jungle, you completely throw away that advantage.  So if you don't double jungle on the bot side, I can brutally punish their bot lane if they push hard to level 2 (which is exactly what I did), but if we double jungle, I throw away my whole advantage to playing Pantheon.  It doesn't make any sense.

So you have to understand _WHY_ high ELO people sometimes double jungle and use it in appropriate spots.  Don't just randomly do it for the lolz or because you read about it being the cool thing to do on reddit.

Oh the lovely smart talk responses to come.

I can summarize my thoughts re: mr karl though.  I asked for help.  He said bugger off.  I said ok.  Kept my mouth shut and then I see this lovely post where karl indicates I'm telling everyone they suck when I take gold runes and that's the same thing as me wanting to hit level 2 before going to lane, etc.  Woo.  So exciting.  

Among all that glorious jibber jabber, you did hit on something that I find interesting anyway:  

and

2 thoughts on this

1 - generally, I agree.  Not entirely though.  When we are talking about various support items that junglers like karl refuse to buy (hue), there is an obvious value in having those - and the sooner the better, right?  But, that takes me to point 2.

2 - I think there should be a specific point, prior to having crazy amounts of support items, where I should taper things back more.  

Now, I'm clearly saying that the following is something I want to work on - let me explain.  The other night we had ourselves a diamond or challenger adc that I was supporting.  Guy did great and we worked really well together.  Now this guy was johnny on the spot for positional decisions.  I'm not talking about laning or team fight positioning... I'm talking about going to the correct place to get the most money.  A beautiful example of this - the guy was at mid with like a wave in bound and his mid laner is dead (so its farm he could take w/o being a douche or putting his mid in a bad spot). He instead BEE LINES to bot lane where there is a stack of 2 waves lined up.  That was the correct decision based on what was going on actually.  He ended up getting 3 1/2 waves before backing... without hurting his team.

Now, here's where I come in and what I need to work on (and relates directly to the 2nd thing).  Most folks we play with will not make that decision that quickly - especially with money directly in front of them (he took 3 1/2 waves instead of 1 1/2 - 2 waves he would have gotten).  I see the map whenever I die, etc.  This is also what can lead to "split push pacov" and is exactly what causes that glorious phenomenon.  That money is first and foremost anyone on my teams money other than me - I know that - BUT - I'm not just going to let all that money go to waste if no one either sees that money and responds - particularly if there is nothing else on the map that requires my attention as a support at that time.  And - being a support, I generally can't quickly push a wave.  What should happen is that someone should see a shit ton of money available and come get it.  IF they don't, I stay until there is a support objective that is needed  (wards, etc).  And sometimes I stay too long.  What that diamond/challenger adc got was that it was his money and all he had to do was get it.  And so it he did - and so I head off to do something else somewhere or soak up a little more passive gold/xp.  

I just take that a little too far sometimes - especially if people are like oh no.. pacov is a support but is not top, I won't take his money... people shouldn't really do that.  Most don't.  Some do.  I will say that sometimes I end up where the money is when I should not - and that is bad.  

I think I need a video break down (which I know you can't provide).  Trying to think of times where I clearly should be getting the money vs others.  Need to weed out the good from the bad.  

The point is that junglers and (non mage) supports should be erring on the side of teamwork, not grabbing gold for themselves.  Carries may err the other way if desired.  But if you play support/jungle and you make a mistake on this, it should always be to the side of "oops, I helped my team too much".

Just saw this re: leashing changes in the patch comin up.  FYI in case something hasn't been posted/u don't know

[PBE - 5.19] Adjustments to Leashing Rules

Here's Xypherous with a heads up on changes to leashing rules testing during 5.19:

"We've significantly rewrote jungle monster leashing rules. This will not affect Epic Monsters - but will affect most monster camps. 

The goals of this change are to visualize the complex set of leashing behaviors down to a few key visible metrics - as well as better balance control and support for unorthodox ways of dealing with jungle monsters (like continuously throwing them over walls). 

All in all, these changes are aimed at making it easier for players to kite monsters in one direction, get better signalling as to when the monsters will leash and take measures to re-aggro the monster. 

Changes

• Large Monsters now display their "Patience" count as a bar above their heads.
• If you do something that the Monster finds abusive, it will begin to lose Patience at a gradual rate. This continues until you stop the offending activity -or- the monster loses all his "Patience"
• If a monster loses the entirety of their "Patience" - they will hard reset, losing interest in you and beginning to regenerate. They are then, unable to be engaged upon until they are above a certain health threshold (90% currently.)
• Jungle Monster camps have their own unique leash radii to control for the various properties of each camp. Leash Radii is now mostly calculated by walking distance rather than as the crow flies.

Things that cause Monsters to lose "Patience" with you:

• If the monster's current target is far out of the monster's camp and there are no other valid targets around.
• If the monster has to switch targets and is being bounced around from target to target.
• If the monster is waaaay far out of his camp. Like.. WAY far out."

5.19 patch notes out - nothing all that interesting imo - stated devourer nerf aimed at ranged changes (procs every 4 instead of every 2) and the bit I listed above re: jungle aggro changes.  Otherwise, just bug fixes/QOL changes and minor at that

Well that's good anyway.  Glad rawr's getting back into it and getting up to speed.  My night was slightly different.  I started ranked queue at 99LP.  Ended at 20 or so with 4 straight losses.  2 I played exceptionally well, but god bless other lanes. 1 I played decent but nothing special, and 1 I was just crap off and we nearly won in spite of my poop plays.  Kind of a bummer.  

My duo queue buddy is probably going to get himself banned, though.  Straight up flaming folks left and right when things aren't going well (particularly if we are killing it).  Not sure if I'm just going to do some solo ranked for a bit or what.  Ah well - gonna have win and loss streaks.  

I picked up a cloud 9 icon to jump in on the in game emote.  It is delightful to spam trundles marching dance and kicking off that emote. Worlds games starting tomorrow (oct 1) if I'm not mistaken.  Not sure on timing.  

#worldshype

I'm getting pumped up.  Going to be able to watch some of the games this AM - pretty excited.  Games start at 10AM EST.

I've gotta tell ya, I struggled a lot last night laning with your bud, cow.  Not at all a knock against him though, I just personally couldn't adapt well enough to how he wanted to play the lane and kept being way too aggressive.  What I needed to do was pick up on how he was doing things much more quickly and sadly I ended up dying a few times before it even occurred to me - I think I was a little slow on the pick up yesterday.  

I noticed something similar the other day when I was duoing some ranked.  I play with this fella that is pretty aggressive but I always run either morg/thresh for him.  I go naut and my playstyle caused a big problem as I'd land decent hooks, etc, and he'd be just far enough way that he couldn't follow up fully.  I don't think my plays were like hambone or anything, but perhaps there's just a little more time to react to the visual queues on a morg bind or thresh hook/follow up.  

Anyway, felt a little out of sync and I had a silly Ali play at one point last night, but other than that, fun enough.  I'm not particularly good with elise, but I've been studying up a ton.  Watched a bunch of recent meteos elise games to see how he's comboing, his routes, etc.  One thing I found really interesting - he almost never takes his first back earlier than 10 minutes... he just stays the crap out and is super productive.  He'll often do 3 camps and then scuttle - after that is pretty much 100% of the time a gank.  After that it goes pretty free form from camping to stealing from the jungle, etc.  Always a w max first since last elise changes.  Elise has really good sustain and it enables her to stay out a very, very long time.  Skill level doesn't have to be super high, but higher than most jungles I think.  Really love her kit, though.  Fun to play