The purpose of guns is not to grow flowers or to blow bubbles. The only purpose of a gun is to kill.

bakerstreet the M-16 now has a heavy barrel version that is considerable more accurate than the regular version. Especially civilian models. Just thought you might like to know.

Listen, Rated. You're allowed to your opinion, Jafo's allowed to his, Bakerstreet is allowed his.
You're allowed to think that your a cool guy because you got a big gun. And we're allowed to think otherwise, k?

Cell phones are made for making phone calls. Doesn't it take a person to make a call? Does the person have to make a call? Just because a person has a cell phone means that he has made phone calls? If he had, are those phone calls legal and to people he knows?

Alls I am saying is that guns (much like money) is not the "evil". People make those guns go off. Gun laws allow it to be easy to get a gun with out easy tracking. Better gun laws would help, but would not eliminate the problem. Why, because people are the ones who are braking the law and buying or selling the guns


The noun here is people. What ever is done it has to be more pschycological than anything else. Gun control is not about controlling the guns, it is about controlling the people who want them.

joe: I'm sorry I don't buy that. Guns are made to kill, it's their only purpose. If I buy a cell phone, it's because I intend to use it. Why would somebody buy a gun if it wasn't for the intent of killing somebody? To denfend himself? sure. But defend himself how? By killing somebody else. Still killing.

And BTW, I'm not talking about collector item 18th century guns here. Yes, those are collector items. An AK-87 or whatever is not a collector item (yes, I know, I know nothing about guns, and I'm proud of it).

Drugs also are inanimate, joe. Yet, drug is evil. Guns are evil. In my book, they are of the same category of things. Illegal in most countries and immoral.

One final comment and then I'm outa here.
ANY variation of an "Armalite", be it an AR15, M16, CAR15 of whatever is inherently flawed when it comes to accuracy.
The design is not meant for long range work, and the receiver is prone to flexing.
It is a hopeless in field weapon unless it is spotless and well maintained, period.
Way back when it first appeared the USMC resisted the push to have their trusty M14s replaced with plastic toys, even our crappy SLRs were better suited to conditions in the bush, and a Kalashnikov would keep working under the worst conditions.
Bakerstreet, for one who appears to be informed in the area of small arms your apparant lack of knowlege re the Kalasknikov is strange.
Rated PG, US 'Special Operations'?????
And the only effect of a bull barrel on an M16 would be to make it bend in the middle of the receiver.
No disrespect to the grunt on the ground but whenever I hear the term 'Special Forces' and the US I think of that great attempt at invading Iran to recover those people held in the US Embassy at Teheran during the early 70s.
40/40 is nice shooting, did the barn door recover?
All this is interesting but the thread seems to have fallen into a "mine's bigger than your's" routine.
And FYI PG, my only qualifications in this area are my rank,unit and service record.

wombat--public websites http://www.socom.mil/ and http://www.afsoc.af.mil/

Jafo, I *really* felt offended by your "NRA Thug" comment. I think you have a really warped view of the people who actually belong to the NRA. Most of the people who are part of it are simply rifle enthusiasts. They hunt, or they shoot at ranges. They collect guns. It is their hobby. They are the same type of people that will be forming a group when they try to make gasoline engines illegal in the future (that is assuming they ever get the battery powered cars working).

There *are* valid reasons for guns. The last place that I lived had a pack of half wolf/half dog animals running around. If you don't know, that is a *really* bad thing. You have up to two hundred pound animals running around that aren't scared of anything. I'm quite sure that my neighbor (who had three small kids that were playing outside) was happy when animal control got to the scene and shot the animals before they got to the kids.

Growing up, there was 20+ guns in my house. Half were special made left handers due to my dad being left handed. Not a one was ever loaded. Not a one had ever been pointed at anyone. My Dad even reloads ammunition (which is actually a pretty neat process). It's his hobby. He would never hurt a soul. He's far from being a "thug." And, I never even tried to make a bomb out of the gun powder that was always around (what was I thinking?)

Koasati- "Karmagirl is trying to get you to smell the coffee...." (Was that pun intended due to my old 'JavaBrain' nickname? ) It is the truth, though. Everyone has their opinions. If you are against guns, don't live in the US and don't buy one yourself. Anyone who knows me knows that this is one issue that I stand my ground on. I have lived with guns and around neighbors who have guns my entire life. I have lived around farmers who have saved there animals by shooting wild animals, I have lived around hunters that keep our Deer population under control (which is more humane and safe than them either starving to death or being hit by cars), and I am not a "thug", I am not evil in any way (well, maybe just a little....but not 'violent' evil).

The "gun" laws do not need to be changed. If you want to change something, change the way a person is treated if they kill somebody with a gun. Change the murder laws. It's not a "gun" problem, it's a "people" problem.

I am *so* convinced that I am much more likely to meet my maker on my commute to work than by the hand of a gun. Actually, I'm more likely to fall down the stairs and break my neck than to be shot.

Where is Ted Nuggent when you need him? http://www.tnugent.com/

Over 48 hours and no crazed sniper shootings. I hope we can go all day without!

Paxx, I think what we need to learn is tolerance. Just because somebody has a different view, or their country has different laws, doesn't give you the right to call them names, or take such a tone with them.

It's not like guns in America is a new thing. I doubt that anyone on this board didn't know that we have a lot of guns in the US.

I was not raised going to church. I have no formal religion. But you will *never* hear me bashing somebody else because of their religious beliefs. I will never call them names. I may point out my views and why I have those views. I will even tell you that some of my views will never be changed, but I will never call you a name because of your views.

I love Jafo, he's a great guy. He does wonderful things for the community and for WinCustomize in general. And, as for you, Paxx, though I disagree with a lot of your views, that doesn't make me dislike you, or think of you as "bad" because of them. i respect your views, I respect you. But, I have different views, and I get offended just like anyone else would if somebody cruelly bashes on something that I believe in.

Guns will not go away in the US. It's part of the constitution: The second Amendment states: "A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

It's that little bit at the end that the NRA fights for and why they say that making laws restricting guns is unconstitutional:
"right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." Laws against guns in any way are obviously seen as an infringement.

ToeJo, let's just hope that the silence remains, and that the sniper isn't en route to another city.

I didn't realize no other country authorized civillians to own guns. It sounds a bit illogical to me, but i'm an American, and our country is based on fighting for our rights. I'd figure the French and others would choose to have gun ownership for civillians as common sense (can we say French Revolution?), but apparently I have the wrong picture...

And the US M-16A2 Service Rifle has proven accurate enough for the last few decades in the Marine Corps. It is highly accurate up to 500 meters without use of a scope, durable, reliable, easy to use and clean, has very little recoil, and with a $0.25 pair of spongy generic ear plugs used when firing, the sound is extremely minor.

The Corps uses the 5.56 NATO Ball round and trains for a single shot efficiency for all personnel, not just Recon Units.

Wombat, your data sounds a bit dated...pre- and during-Vietnam era...maybe to include just past it, as well?

I thought in China, they (civillians) couldn't own guns...?