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c242
c242
Join Date 03/2001
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MAC-icon rips

January 11, 2002 9:05:53 AM from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I personally think, that 75 percent of those Mac to XP icon-conversions are done and uploaded without permission... Does anybody else feel bad about that ? I'm still waiting for a certain permission just to see that someone else takes my idea from a screenshot and uploads part of it. (Just a side-note...)
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c242
digitaljames
Join Date 03/2001
0
Reply #1 January 11, 2002 10:35:59 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
On your "side not"....I have never viewed your screen shot until I saw this post. The dx objects in my 128 Ports theme are .png files not icons. Get your facts straight before you make acusations. You could have e-mailed me privately rather than make an issue in public for which you only have assumptions....
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c242
disciple
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #2 January 11, 2002 12:53:15 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
not that this is really a rip (since the originals were ripped from OS X in the first place by me) but do any of you admins think that it's ok to repackage work (the converting and resizing) someone else did (without the readme i might add) and call it your own? if you look at https://www.wincustomize.com/skins.asp?library=2&SkinID=752 Mac OS Modern v2 that's been on the Top 10 Downloads for weeks you'll find that they are just the icons from aqua-soft.org that were converted and resized by me. i know i didn't create the icons myself but it did take a lot of work to convert and resize them (creating 48, 64, and 72 sized images) and Kuri Cazz gives no mention of aqua-soft, apple, disciple, or anyone and hasn't included the readme in the original files. he (she) has simply repacked the icons from aqua-soft (originally from apple) and uploaded them here. what's with that? i've posted several comments on his download page and got no answer/reply.
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c242
c242
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #3 January 11, 2002 12:55:03 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
If Your idea really was not inspired by my screenshot I apologize for that. But : The conversion to png is a matter of permission to me, too.

My main point was not this special case but another one... (see subject).
If You take a look look at devart's winicon-section You perhaps will understand my rant.
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c242
Frogboy
Join Date 03/2001
+2419 sdemperor
Reply #4 January 11, 2002 1:07:53 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Disciple, that is definitely problematic.

I'm not sure what the course should be.

One the one hand, they're Apple's icon designs but you put work into them as well.

We're open to suggestions.
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c242
Firestorm
Join Date 07/2001
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Reply #5 January 11, 2002 1:40:18 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I'd say have Kuri apologize to disciple and formally request permission to use his adapted icons. If disciple agrees, the package stays. If not, it does not.

Salomonic, eh?
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c242
disciple
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Reply #6 January 11, 2002 2:05:14 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
i'm not personally too upset it just seems that no one reads the readmes and even thinks twice about repackaging someone elses work w/o permission and uploading it as their own. as i said, it's not exactly a rip since they were originally ripped from OS X in the first place (therefore no artistry or creativity was invested by me) but it at least seems polite to ask first and include some credit to aqua-soft.org so at least people know from where they originated into the windows world. what do you all think?
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c242
jtfolden
Join Date 03/2001
+1
Reply #7 January 11, 2002 3:50:12 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I've recently run into the same type of situation, disciple, and I agree... Someone ripped a large portion of the graphics from my H2O Pro theme for WB and used them without permission. Hell, they even used my UIS file that plainly and politely asked for credit right at the very top of the file and they left that text in there while totally ignoring it. I called them on it, they refused to work anything out - until after I had the skin removed from several sites. Now the kid posts sarcastic comments on themes I upload.

While it may be true that neither of us are the designers of the artwork on the original platform, and I never hide where the inspiration comes from, we are the ones that undertook the idea and hard work of recreating it as something useful to Windows users.

So, it seems to me that as long as skin sites allow uploads of OS related themes then these same themes should also be protected from rippers, if for nothing else than the time and hard work factor. Rather than stealing from another theme, they should ask for permission / give credit when they use them OR simply go and recreate the artwork themselves. Just my opinion.
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c242
Hell Dragon
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #8 January 11, 2002 4:17:52 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Yepp... I've noticed the same problem over at DA. (as you know c242)

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation.php?id=139656

Basically the guy there just did a mass conversion of Icon Factory's latest OS-X icons 'World of Aqua 3'.

Now, I know for a fact that IconFactory _hate_ this sort of thing with a passion, since they like to control where they icons are downloaded, and even have their own site http://www.dotico.com for their conversions.

They guy over at DA is being a real asshole about it, and somehow thinks he has a 'right' to upload them since he put the work into converting them.

He's even resorted to giving me revenge reviews on my deviations since I gave him hassle. Quite Sad.
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c242
c242
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #9 January 11, 2002 4:37:52 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Hmmm, this becomes a general discussion about ripping. Again, that was not my point. OS-ports are one aspect, but I spoke of original artwork by mac-artists that is converted without any permission. Although some ports are really good and enhanced with more sizes (and much work) others are simple iconshop-converts quickly thrown into a zip-file. I have received many requests to give away the converted MM-Icons via e-mail, but I will not do that as long as Mikkel Madsen (the original author) doesn't give his permission.

About the struggle at deviantart : The guy even accused me of ripping (revenge, revenge) in a comment for my screenshot...
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c242
disciple
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #10 January 11, 2002 4:52:36 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
yeah, sorry to make this post go in a direction you did not mean c242. it just reminded me of a situation i'd seen personally.

as far as original artwork from a mac, i'd asked someone who uploaded icons to xicons.com (his site was at http://istudio.appleonlooker.com/ and is now gone) if he minded if i converted his icons to windows xp and provided them for windows users (giving him the credit, etc. of course in the readme and pointing people to his site). he replied saying that he had "issues" with that and would rather me not but thanked me for asking. when further pressed on what "issues" he had he said to be honest that he hated (i think "was repulsed by windows" was the words he used) windows and would never want to see his work on a wretched windows machine and that was why he didn't want me to do that. so even though i thought his reasons were ridiculous i honored his request as the original author of the icons and have not offered them for download. i converted them and used them for myself but will not offer them for others to download.

i think that is the issue. if you ask and they say it's ok (which most often it is) then post for download...everything's fine. if you ask and they say no then don't. but the point is, ask...
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c242
c242
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #11 January 11, 2002 5:17:30 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
And that is a big point, I think. I don't mind for the mac-pc war at all, as I don't mind who is driving what car or whatever...
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c242
adni18
Join Date 05/2001
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Reply #12 January 11, 2002 7:03:39 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
The icons in the "Mac OS Modern v2" package, are not all MacOs X icons maded by Apple, the most of them are maded by other Mac-Users authors. Therefore, are rips!
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c242
Hell Dragon
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #13 January 11, 2002 7:30:40 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Okay, the Problem at DA (with the IconFactory conversions) is sorted, and since the user was being so stubborn about it, he got what was coming to him.

Fair enough.

But c242 does have a very good point; most of the new XP icons coming out at the moment are nothing but MacOS-X conversions and rips. It's a sad fact but true, most people would rather just convert old work then actually get down and create something original and fresh.

There's no way I have the time to check every possible site... I just surf for icons occasionally - and I know most of the Mac Iconists definitely don't check Windows sites for their work.

Ahh well...
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c242
Koasati
Join Date 07/2001
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Reply #14 January 12, 2002 9:16:22 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
The icons in the "Mac OS Modern v2" package, are not all MacOs X icons maded by Apple, the most of them are maded by other Mac-Users authors. Therefore, are rips!


by Master adni18 - 1/11/2002 7:03:39 PM

Are you suggesting that if they were all made by Apple, then posting them without permission is not a rip?

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c242
adni18
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Reply #15 January 12, 2002 4:10:59 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Yes, Koasati, from Apple or Microsoft or Next or other OS, otherwise we have a lot of rips around, don't you think?
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c242
Firestorm
Join Date 07/2001
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Reply #16 January 12, 2002 5:12:57 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Koasati, while using the icons that came with an OS is technically a rip, Apple suffers nothing by our usage of them: No loss of money, or business, or prestige. An inidivdual who has his work ripped suffers from at least one of the above, and in the case of pro teams like Pixtudio, ALL of the above.
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c242
JayG
Join Date 04/2001
+1
Reply #17 January 12, 2002 6:03:41 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
apple might argue that it dilutes the value of their work and causes peopple not to buy macs.
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c242
Firestorm
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Reply #18 January 12, 2002 6:24:07 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Food for thought...
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c242
Koasati
Join Date 07/2001
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Reply #19 January 12, 2002 7:26:17 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
a rip is a rip is a rip...........
It doesn't matter if anyone is 'hurt', it's just WRONG! If someone rips my work, I'm not hurt, (no danger of that happening, I suppose) but I am pissed.
Adni, yes, we have a lot of rips around! I'll never understand why it's OK to port an OS without permission. This double standard bothers me very much........

I know I'm in the minority here, but that's how I see it......
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c242
Jafo
Join Date 03/2001
+1846 sdemployee
Reply #20 January 13, 2002 8:13:51 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Koasati...regarding the apparent 'double-standard'....the skinning community sites have a responsibility to respect and protect other skin authors in the community by rejecting rips of their work.
When it comes to artwork derived from OS's, whether Apple or XP, it is the direct responsibility of the Product owners to police. If Apple were to contact skinning sites and demand that ALL OSX-derived works and imagery were removed we would have to comply. When it comes to Microsoft, I really believe that they have seen that it's in their best interest to nurture this use of their product in this way as it only promotes greater interest and therefore profit to themselves.
If person ONE grabs an OS icon and modifies it in some way...and the OS maker does not take issue, then all is well.
If person TWO does the same...well and good.
If however, person TWO takes the work of person ONE and modifies THAT and uploads it..then we have a 'rip' problem, even though both works are essentially the same OS origin.
The problem is that now we have someone within our sphere of control/management that we can protect and oversee...
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c242
Koasati
Join Date 07/2001
+21
Reply #21 January 14, 2002 7:15:09 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
So what you're saying is we have no responibility to _respect_ and protect skinners outside our little community........

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c242
Hell Dragon
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #22 January 14, 2002 7:34:14 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I totally agree with you 100% Koasati... a rip is a rip, in theory anyway.

In practice, it's near impossible to stop every rip.

If you think about it like that, all the Aqua/BeOS skins/icons etc.. are rips and should all be removed. Also all the XP skins/wallpapers/icons are also rips.

I might be wrong, but if my memory serves me correctly, I think IconFactory created the XP icons... they are owned by Microsoft of course, but there is a _name_ to but to them... so I guess they're not just some faceless company's creations.

Unfortunately, It's just not going to happen, most people would rather just convert other OS's icons/artwork then actually think up and create something new, original and fresh.

And a lot of the time that's exactly what users want... they want to imitate other OS's and explore different looks on their system.

Who's going to be the first person to ask for all the XP skins & icons to be taken down from all the sites out there?

not me... it's more hassle then it's worth, believe me.

In a perfect world... maybe.
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c242
Firestorm
Join Date 07/2001
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Reply #23 January 14, 2002 7:49:40 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Microsoft endorses WindowBlinds, having given them their stamp of approval and a spot on the XP catalog. If they don't have a problem with a program that lets users apply Luna-based skins (and which, in fact, includes a Luna clone among its sample skins), why should you?
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c242
c242
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #24 January 15, 2002 4:36:27 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
So it came as it should come... There is a intense ripping of MMIcons going on in the Neowin boards. Permission ? No...
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c242
Jafo
Join Date 03/2001
+1846 sdemployee
Reply #25 January 15, 2002 7:06:31 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Koasati...
No, I am a little more 'global' than that.
At no time was I inferring that rip concerns only applied to what happens on this site. If that was the case, I wouldn't be taking such a stand on each and every other skinning site as I do here.
Check DevART, for example....pretty-well every rip-related thread there has me commenting somewhere....

All 'third-party',individual skinners and/or groups/companies thereof deserve the same protection.
It's more a case of trying to distinguish between 'porting' and out-right 'ripping'...
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