I would too. I think Integer has the key. Right or wrong, perception is what often counts as reality.

I think some of the more articulate people (I wish Plastic were here) like Integer could really put it in black and white in a rational way that would make sense. How did Shoggot, for instance, go from being an Admin of WinCustomize (yes, when we launched WC, there were 4 admins - me, shoggot, alexandrie, and l0c. l0c left for creative differences but very amicably, shoggot said he didn't have time so t-man and migeleto took over those 2 spots, both Stardock people which changed the direction of the site since all major changes are implemented based on a VOTE by the admins/moderators) to saying we're "Evil"? The first time I knew jier was unhappy with us was in a news item about the skin primer in which he compared me with Sam J of eFront - right out of the blue.

People do things for reasons normally. There is something in the way Stardock does things that rubs a certain percentage (it's all about percentages) the wrong way. I have often written this off as negative interpretation since I've not seen an articulate explanation (even Shoggot didn't substantiate his reasons for saying Stardock is "evil" with any facts).

That's a seperate issue from the freeware vs. payware discussion we're having here though. This issue applies across the entire spectrum of software (games, applications, utilities, etc.).

Without knowing what those things are, how can we correct the things that rub you the wrong way?

OK - it seems I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. Here's my take on it (and remember - thats exactly what it is - MY take on it)

Stardock used to monitor the internet, don't know if they still do, but they did. I don't just mean check out a few pages here and there, I mean _monitor_. Everywhere that Stardock is mentioned, someone will turn up, gauranteed - why? Is it really so important? There seems to be an obsession with statistics, facts, figures - the need to know everything. It's mentioned in another thread here that they monitor all skin sites, again, in great depth, knowing every statistic from any given day/week etc..again - why? We all know how much people dislike the "big brother" attitude, well this is what comes across. I'll admit that it's not illegal, or immoral, but is it really nesseccary? It sends out the wrong message to start with.

Then theres this:-

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=szKOOHwDBHA.1912%40prospero.stardock.com&rnum=3&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Ddesktopx%2Bcnet%2Bbrad%26hl%3Den%26rnum%3D3%26selm%3DszKOOHwDBHA.1912%2540prospero.stardock.com

(I have no idea if that link is going to come out ok)
This is you, Brad, asking your own registered users to visit CNET and vote for your software. Sure, you put across reasons for doing so, but they are null - all the reasons you give apply to every piece of software on CNET, not just your own. I also note that you didn't specifically ask for a positive vote - but what other vote would you expect from your registered users that frequent your newsgroups? The intentions are obvious, and damaging. It not only promotes your product, but in turn harms any competing products to yours, including the independent developer who you know I am a fan of supporting.
Then theres things like the skin primer. I'm sure most here will say that its a well written guide to the newbie, I expect that. However, with your other actions taken into consideration, it could also be claimed that it's simply a promotional tactic. It is, after all, aimed at the newbies - and most of the latter part is simply promoting windowblinds. If I'm being cynical, I could also point out the featured section here. You say this site is also aimed at newbies - the last featured app was convergence, and it was for many months I believe. Now it's WinXPSkins. Ok, newbie comes along "Ooh look, WinXP skins, I can get a new theme for my WindowsXP" - what does he find? I'll admit, that one may be a bit extreme, but hey, we've been discussing how your viewpoint can change your perception right?
My last point is aimed more at Brad than Stardock, and that is whats been called "ramming your products down peoples throats". Don't take this as an insult Brad, but you must admit to taking every opportunity to push your products on the (many) boards that you frequent. The TGSoft issue was a good example of this. Every time there was any publicity regarding it, you were there making claims etc.. that it doesn't do this, and windowblinds does this much better. It appeared you felt threatened by it, and were trying to discredit it in any way, whilst also promoting windowblinds.
Things like this only serve to make Stardock look bad, and divide the skinning "community" - as it has. Are you with Brad or against? It seem there is no in-between.....

Well, these are my feelings - I'm sure you all have your own, feel free to tell me, this isn't me ranting at Stardock - it's me responding to a request. I really didn't want to do it, but it seemed I had been backed into a corner. I dont claim that everything here is how you should see things, but it _is_ how I see things, be it biased or not. Some of the things here will seem trivial to you, but when they are all added together, surely you can see how some people might be affected.

I think now I will find out who the are the mature peole here and who isn't

"This is you, Brad, asking your own registered users to visit CNET and vote for your software. Sure, you put across reasons for doing so, but they are null - all the reasons you give apply to every piece of software on CNET, not just your own. I also note that you didn't specifically ask for a positive vote - but what other vote would you expect from your registered users that frequent your newsgroups? The intentions are obvious, and damaging. It not only promotes your product, but in turn harms any competing products to yours, including the independent developer who you know I am a fan of supporting."

I think that was a measure to counter votes by the usual cnet visitor... Don't tell me you haven't seen them.

User: sfdfsfs
Rating: *
Comments: booga booga!

User: Eye own joo!
Rating: *
Comments: It sux and will kill your hard drive!!

Asking experienced users to vote objectively is hardly asking for positive promotion.

"Then theres things like the skin primer. I'm sure most here will say that its a well written guide to the newbie, I expect that. However, with your other actions taken into consideration, it could also be claimed that it's simply a promotional tactic. It is, after all, aimed at the newbies - and most of the latter part is simply promoting windowblinds. If I'm being cynical, I could also point out the featured section here. You say this site is also aimed at newbies - the last featured app was convergence, and it was for many months I believe. Now it's WinXPSkins. Ok, newbie comes along "Ooh look, WinXP skins, I can get a new theme for my WindowsXP" - what does he find? I'll admit, that one may be a bit extreme, but hey, we've been discussing how your viewpoint can change your perception right?"

I'm sure Stardock would have no problem including other forms of XP skins (such as visual styles) if TGT hadn't started taking pot shots at WB and even Brad himself from the get-go. Surely you remember their interview at DA.

"My last point is aimed more at Brad than Stardock, and that is whats been called "ramming your products down peoples throats". Don't take this as an insult Brad, but you must admit to taking every opportunity to push your products on the (many) boards that you frequent. The TGSoft issue was a good example of this. Every time there was any publicity regarding it, you were there making claims etc.. that it doesn't do this, and windowblinds does this much better. It appeared you felt threatened by it, and were trying to discredit it in any way, whilst also promoting windowblinds."

1. TGT's reps did everything they could to misrepresent WB's capabilities.

2. One of their reps even called Brad (by name, he didn't refer to Stardock the company, he said "Brad Wardell") "paranoid" simply because Brad took the time to defend his product after it was slandered all over the community by people who hadn't even used it. (Remember when Stardock forced a certain sitwe to remove itslinks to warez versions of SD's products? That's how that site's regulars retaliated, by getting behind Styles XP and dragging WB through the mud, often with no evidence upon which to build their arguments.)

"Things like this only serve to make Stardock look bad, and divide the skinning "community" - as it has. Are you with Brad or against? It seem there is no in-between....."

I don't see anyone here forcing people to choose sides. Except maybe the armchair demagogues at Custo, who insist on lumping anyone with a kind word to say about Brad or Stardock as a "Stardock kid."

"Well, these are my feelings - I'm sure you all have your own, feel free to tell me, this isn't me ranting at Stardock - it's me responding to a request. I really didn't want to do it, but it seemed I had been backed into a corner. I dont claim that everything here is how you should see things, but it _is_ how I see things, be it biased or not. Some of the things here will seem trivial to you, but when they are all added together, surely you can see how some people might be affected.

I think now I will find out who the are the mature peole here and who isn't."

If I didn't know you better I'd say that's flame bait

Wait, I actually DON'T know you... Uh... Nice to meet you

Thanks, Integer....now I see your point of view...just means that I still want to talk, though...
I prefer more 'immediate' modes of discussion...that way threads and trains of thought don't get hijacked...

btw the only thing I really see in you Brad is a VERY motivated business man who also enjoys his job which happens to be in the business of skinning, I stopped trying to figure you out past that a long time ago...
(I have come to find out that you always seem fair)
Interesting though to watch how other ppl percieve you constantly
(Jafo can you spell check that percieve word?)
hehe

no way Jafo! I want to interupt and hijack this thread and stuff while you guys talk... hehe

I wish I would have heard that in my English class years ago maybe it would have saved me some face over the years! sheesh

TasT...it's not that easy...at the time of the skinz.org demise, general awareness was very much of a commercial company doing 'bad things' to the skinning community....that company was eFront.
With the death of eFront and skinz.org [mk.1] too, focus of animosity simply shifted to fill the vacuum.

Everyone needs something to complain about.

The problem with opinions is that everyone has one [but only mine is correct]...

I wasn't trying to drag you into a debate, Integer. But I wanted to reply to your points, again, from my own perspective. No hostility was intended

jusss one more thing though...

Free apps are free therefore who can really complain or put them down cuz they are free!

Pay for Apps cost money so it better be all that plus a bag of chips! and if you don't have the money to buy it though you really want it then why not bash it?

to be expected really Brad

Perception is everything.
I remember when I was a newbie, over at old skinz, I thought Frogboy was a Stardock employee who was getting paid to go around on the websites/newsgroups and promote the Stardock products. I thought it was amusing.
But later, I found out that he was actually the CEO and I was getting annoyed that he was pushing his products so much. It annoyed me so much that I kept looking for alternatives for Windowblinds. There was none, other than Customeyes, and I got into a long argument with him about it (the first of a long history, hehehe!).
Then Skinz died and here came this site. Still with the same anoyance, I thought oh great, now he wants his site to replace skinz.org so he can promote all his products as much as he wants to.

But then, some months ago, I had a change of hearts. So, yes, indeed, I still think he's overdoing it, I still think he could just leave things alone and not take personnaly every critic made to one of Stardock's products. Everybody's read my posts here and elsewhere about it. But I now take it more lightly. I've come to tell to myself: So what? Why should it bother me? Wincustomize is a good site, with nice people, nice admins. It doesn't have any annoying popups like other skins sites. But it's true that it still has too great of a Stardock influence, but I believe they are working on that at the moment, which is great news to my ears.
To come back to Brad, I have come to realise he is just a VERY passionate person. ABout his prodcuts, yes, but also about everything else. And I can't criticize him about that, because I'm the same way. That's why our debates clash at times, and that's why I was his nightmare at times.
So, in the end, I don't take it so seriously anymore. When I see that I feel he's making a fool of himself, I just send him a friendly email, which he always answers. And that's one thing I can say about Brad, he always answers his emails; that can't be said about everybody. I have send emails to other site's admins, and never got even an acknowledgement.
No, Brad is a passionate person, but he's a good person. He's not evil, and there are no conspiration.

My 1 cent.

Paxx, thanks for the post. Your perspective shreds light on a lot of things.

As Stardock has grown, I've discovered a real problem in myself - I've never had a "real" job.

That's because my job came out of my hobby. I've never had to distinguish having a job and having a hobby because they've always been the same thing. Whatever cool computery stuff I've gotten into I've tried to find a way to make it so that I can do it full time.

Consider what Stardock does: We make video games and desktop enhancements. How are they related to one another? They're not. We just released Elves, Inc. Why did we make that? Because it was fun.