Yes....thanks caylynn

Here is his reply

********************************************

Johanne,
I have requested that my themes adminstrator send me similar screenshots of his computer using both your WindowBlinds Pre Luna theme and the theme of Neodescis, also called Pre Luna, for StyleXP. After careful comparison, I have noticed several huge differences between your themes. His scroll-bar graphics, when compared to your screenshot, appear to be very different, and WindowBlinds does not appear to use your scroll bar in Internet Explorer, where his does. Additionally, your task bar and start bars are much different in terms of color, shape, and style. His button spacing is different, and his toolbars are RADICALLY different. It is also evident when both screenshots are zoomed in that Neodecsis did NOT take any of your bitmaps to make his theme.
It would appear that the ONLY similarity between your two themes is in the title bar and the name. Everything else appears to be different. Based on this finding, I again stress that his theme does not appear to constitute copyright infringement. This has no indication of being a port - it has every indication of being a separate work simply BASED on your own. He even went above and beyond in giving you credit for being the inspiration, so I fail to see what your problem is. My instinct is that you, as many others in your community, are trying to take StyleXP out any way possible.
You keep claiming that it is not difficult to point out that his theme is a copy of yours. If it is not difficult, why don't you go ahead and prove it? You have made no attempts to do this, and neither have any of those WinCustomize users that you have sent after me in an attempt to bend the situation to your advantage.
When Neodescis removed the theme, he was NOT admitting that he is not the author - indeed, he is the author. He was simply breaking under the stress of attacks from you and your friends. Remember, I have spoken with Neodescis on this matter. I also intend to carbon-copy him, my staff, and my host on this message.
In all of your attempts to convince my site staff, myself, and (likely) my host to remove Neodescis's theme, you have repeatedly failed to provide any concrete evidence that his theme constitutes copyright infringement. I have conducted an investigation that NEGATES your claim that his theme is simply a rip, port, or copy of your theme. I have tried to be reasonable and provide you with our standard procedure for dealing with copyright infringement claims, in hopes you might eventually see it fit to actually prove your case. In the end, I've spent WAY too much of my time dealing with this specific issue.
You continue to claim that it is somehow my obligation or responsibility to remove another author's work from my website on blind faith that you are telling the truth. I disagree. I think it is a matter of personal and professional integrity that I do not rely on blind faith in any madder of conduct, especially one of this nature and magnitude. I am going to ask that you stop e-mailing me and/or my site staffers. This goes for all your friends as well.
I shouldn't need to repeat myself - Neodescis created his own theme simply based on yours. Until you have evidence otherwise, I'm not going to be responding to your messages. I want to be as fair as possible, but there are only a limited number of hours in each day with which
I have to maintain my site.

Best Regards,
Chase Venters

forgot to post the email of the guy here it is
chase@boomgames.com

It looks like we’re stuck. Here’s a thought:
I spend quite a bit of time at a discussion site called kuro5hin.org. Over just a few months I have seen several people bring issues like this to the attention of the public and receive some great results. It seems that intellectual property is a commonly misinterpreted concept that needs to be addressed. If one of the more talented writers in our community could produce an article detailing IP and how it applies to skinning, it could be posted there. Educating people has its own benefits, but it’s only when someone presents open ended questions that the locals come out of their holes and get to work. I’ve seen these people come up with some truly brilliant solutions to problems in our world. If we simply ask, “how should we fight this?” I’m sure we’ll get all sorts of advice from perspectives other than our own. If we can get into the minds of rippers and the people who stand up for them and understand why they hold the belief that they are right, maybe we can develop a better argument against them.

On the other hand, if you just want to spam their mailboxes, let me know.

oinky: That's a good idea. The folks are pretty knowledgeable and organized. Our message board here really doesn't get read by enough people to put together an effective force of advocacy.

This push, against these centres of ripping needs to be cast wider....notifying the other 'real' skinning sites of the problem....making sure that sites such as skinz, Devart, skinbase, Custo, [and the others as they come back on line]...all help with this spreading of awareness...

Chase Venter: "...does not appear to use your scroll bar in Internet Explorer..."

Zathrus: "...Dumbass..."

Here's the email I sent to our new buddy Chase:

"You should be aware of the fact that the Visual Style called "PreLuna" by Neodescis, is a shameless rip of a skin originally created by Johanne "Alexandrie" Cheiné. Neo has admitted to this several times before. Ms. Cheiné is a very respected member of the digital art community, and as such, this violation of her intellectual property will not be tolerated. Please, do the right thing and remove the offending piece. I don't believe that there's a malicious intent on Neo's part, but the fact remains: He's violating the law, and so are you and your host by allowing the style to remain up."

His less-tan-polite response:

"Neodescis is a respected member of his community, and as such, his right to create his own independent works will be upheld. I have told you bastards time and time again - there are very few similarities between their themes. Have any of you armchair pundits bothered to actually LOAD his damned theme and compare it to hers, or are you using screenshots as blind faith?"

Here's the response I'm sending him:

"Neodescis is a respected member of his community,"

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

"and as such, his right to create his own independent works will be upheld."

Yes, that's all well and good, except for one little thing: It's not his "own, independent work." He's even admitted he ported Alexandrie's skin even though he didn't have permission to do so.

http://board.iexbeta.com/cgi-bin/ib2/topic.cgi?forum=17&topic=204

"I have told you bastards time and time again -"

Wow, you're just a class act through and through, huh?

"there are very few similarities between their themes. Have any of you armchair pundits bothered to actually LOAD his damned theme and compare it to hers, or are you using screenshots as blind faith?"

Hmm... Let's see....

Neo's visual style looks like a cheap knockoff of Alex's skin. It's named after Alex's skin. Neo posted admitting to have done it as a port of Alex's original. I don't know what straw you're trying to grab at here, pal. If this was a courtroom, you'd be laughed out of it. We have a thief who openly admitted to stealing someone else's work. How you dare defend that boggles my mind.

Thanks for removing it. Like I said, I don't perceive any malice from Neo's intentions (he's had nothing but compliments for Alex's work), but when you put days or weeks into the creation of an original work, it's incredibly hurtful to see someone else grab control over it away from you, regardless of whether they think it's an homage or not.

cool! thanks, finnaly

Here's another email...to and fro.....I guess I should have read this one first....


Chase...
I only just read this one...after responding in the other to the screenshots.

Yep...
I screwed up....I didn't check the validity of the claims of 'porn' being available on your site.....my mistake.
I didn't go looking for it, either.

As to the rest of it....well, looks like I was just a little too late....you obviously have caught up with the rules of artists' copyright and have found your stance to be a little 'tenuous'.
I am glad that you have removed the offending 'rip'.
Thankyou...

No, Stardock is not [to my knowledge] at all concerned about a freeware reg hack that can do slight changes to XP's appearance.
But I DO believe that Stardock, along with all of the other skinners who existed in this community well before stylesxp or msstyles or XP or your site's interest in same, ARE concerned about this cavalier attitude to copyright and its theft.

I will take your advice, as you have suggested I may like to post this on our message board at Wincustomize.com, but would you also be happy for me to post its content on every skinning site of which I am a member, [having been a skinner since before each and every existing skin site existed]?
I personally am not embarrassed by my stand on this issue.

By the way....of one thing you are definitely in error in your tirade.
I am NOT Johanne's 'crony'.
I am her friend.
There IS a difference. Please do not insult me, or Johanne with such comment.
It is both inflamatory and defamatory.
I understand the Queen's English, and know the correct meaning of 'crony'.
You may wish to check its meaning, and formally apologise to both myself, and Johanne, and others included by the phrase.

Regards,
Paul Martin
JAFO
Just Another F***ing Observer

-----Original Message-----
From: Chase Venters
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:07 AM
To: martinp@smart.net.au

Subject: Johanne and the Pre Luna skin


Let me warn you in advance that I'm going to be very BLUNT and DIRECT in
this e-mail. I've about had it with you and the rest of Johanne Chaine's
cronies.

First of all, before you do a damned thing, download Pre Luna by Johanne and
Pre Luna by Neodescis and install them both. I've attached the two
screenshots I've been provided with as basis to compare the themes. You will
find VERY FEW similarities, and if you zoom in and compare bitmaps used to
make the themes, you'll find that they were recreated and are not in fact
direct rips of any sort.

One thing you should know as well.... I am WELL aware of the thread on the
WinCustomize message board regarding the dealings with my site, and have
been keeping a close eye on it. I think it's very clear from reading that
document that some of you don't know what is going on, and others are simply
going to charge in blindly out of respect for Johanne.

My personal favorite:

-------------------------------------
Grrr...time for me to start kicking some arses.

These little morons have not heard the end of this.

Either they concede they are in breach of a legally enforcable copyright, or
their ISP removes their site either for that, and/or for having
'pornography' accessible to minors...

One way or another, this will end...
-------------------------------------

Your perception of pornography is also as challenged as your perception of
copyright law. Actually, I take that back... you could have a valid
definition of pornography, but that would mean you haven't looked through
our site. Which is it?

I have given screenshots from both themes to several people for their own
evaluation. Not only have all of them dismissed even the mere IDEA that by
any stretch of imagination would Neodescis's theme be an example of a
rip/port/copy of Johanne's work, but that the only clear similarity is in
the style of ART. I suspect that you personally have not chosen to install
Neodescis's theme, so you cannot tell me otherwise.

Let me share with you some relevant speculation. It appears that StyleXP is
really rocking your boat over there in the WindowBlinds fence... StyleXP is
not only much simpler and free but much less CPU intensive than your own
worshipped product. I'm sure any one of you bastards would do anything
possible to see StyleXP come to an end, because you see the threat it
represents.

You should know that you are not going to warp my perception of things by
sending "official" sounding e-mails, threatening letters, or contacting my
host. You're also not going to get anywhere by rounding up members of your
WinCustomize forums and having them send their own "official" e-mails to
make it appear there is a greater volume of people upset by the issue.

The first e-mail I got in regards to this situation threatened to have my
site deleted. That was absolutely brilliant on the author's part, because
everyone knows that a quantifiable threat such as site deletion will make
someone divorce their spouse if necessary. Seriously though, what were you
bastards thinking? Did you think we would not INVESTIAGE your claims,
rather, accept them blindly?

Not only that, you and her other cronies have repeatedly refused to produce
any graphical evidence that shows Neodescis's work is in fact an example of
copyright infringement. Rather, I've been assaulted with blanket threats and
a stockpile of general misunderstanding. We played ball with you on Lost
Souls because it was more clear that work was in fact an example of
copyright infringement. Yet, even after providing many members of your
community with a handy copy of our copyright policy, including the procedure
to follow in order to confirm copyright infringement and have the offending
work removed, you've abandoned all logic and gone "full steam ahead" taking
the same actions you have before.

I find it disturbing as well that there are miscellaneous references to
members suggesting "flood"(s) and "bomb"(s) of e-mail to my site, as well as
your references to changing OS's so you can "nuke these little kiddies". Wha
t you have PERSONALLY done can be considered HIGHLY MALICIOUS, and I will
gladly spend a few more hours of my time going through logfiles to look for
evidence... should I reveal any, I will forward it along with a fair
description of what is happening to your internet service provider, and you
may soon find yourself in a VERY ACTIONABLE POSITION.

You're going to claim all day that the theme of Neodescis constitutes
copyright violation. Let me stir up a hypothetical situation in hopes you
see the light. Suppose that I start a band - the first band ever, in fact,
to play heavy metal. You listen to my band and are inspired - you like what
you've heard. So you go along and produce your own CD - eight songs that are
chiefly your own, but it is clear that they share the style I pioneered. Do
you get charged with copyright infringement?

NO.

If you are to have any hope of me removing the theme in question, you're
going to need to provide graphical evidence that it does indeed constitute
copyright infringement. Oh, and as is the norm, I'm carbon-copying my host
on this message. I want them to know what is going on well in advance.


P.S.: Post this e-mail, in its entirety, with the included screenshots, on
your beloved site. Front page, back page, forum, toilet, doesn't matter. I'm
granting you that right.

-------------
Chase Venters
-------------
Director TUCB Technologies Corporation [www.tucb.com]
Editor in Chief BoomGames Interactive [www.boomgames.com]
-------------


Again, email links removed to keep the peace.

Yes....well, after one or ten more emails, I have given up.....beating my head against a brick wall only hurts your head....as mine does right now.

Just keep a watchful eye on sites such as this one and go through all of this again, the next time it happens...

this guy is really weird.