Well, that's the thing - I don't think there's a perfect way of dealing with the 2nd blue or even the when to hand off red scenario.  For instance, let's say karl wants to run udyr.  Now udyr is a mana whore and would benefit ALOT from having the 2nd blue.  If I'm running anivia, udyr should give it over.  If I'm being a sport, though, then I'd take a champ that isn't as dependent on the blue so he could take the 2nd one.  Naut certainly benefits from blue, but can manage his mana well enough that it isn't necessary.  With my naut example, though, I'm talking about a scenario where I can immediately go to lane with my ult if I take the 2nd blue.  W/o it, then I need to head some where else to get XP and then gank... which could put me out of position or be a missed opportunity.  Honestly, and likely sadly, most of my 2nd blue logic on naut comes from that level 6 mentality. 

#gp-mid: 

Sure, Cow wasn't playing his strongest champs. But you also "stole" Karl's role. Karl can only play Cho in a solo lane (from what i've seen), and even though i do think he should branch out and generally has good jungle sense, occasionally he has unrealistic expectations from laners - so the expierence is good for him in some ways. But, from the get-go the roles were distributed in such a way you weren't playing for "best win chances".

#blue-donations:

Junglers can pretty much be seperated into one of 3 types:

1- AD junglers

these guys usually don't really need blue, but do get amplified somewhat. Nocturne loves the 20% CDR on his ult, Udyr is somewhat mana-gated midgame (though blue doesn't really help his ganks at all except the fact he has less mana problems while jungling).

i'm pretty sure Vi can solo dragon if she gets 2nd blue. 

While taking blue is a boost, they function adequately without it. 

2- Mana-Gated AP-based Junglers

Skarner, Hec, Fiddlesticks, Amumu, Naut, Diana

These guys get significantly amplified by getting 2nd blue. Their ults CD's are usually pretty long at rank 1 (but not rank 2/3). They have super fast clears if they are allowed to spam abilities, but mediocre otherwise, and so their clear speeds are way faster. Most critically, like you said, they hit level 6 if they take first blue and that lets them make a big power play rather than having to go to Red (and then being only at half-2/3rds mana). 

These junglers are typically where these "is blue mids or junglers" arguments typically revolve around.

3- HP Tanks

Sej, Zac, Voli, Cho

These guys really have no mana problems.

 If you are a #2 type jungler, you typically have a few options: 

1- Use 2/7/21 masteries instead of x/21/x. Those masteries are really good on those people.  

(speaking of which: don't use Legendary armor on anyone. It is 2/3.5/5% increase of the armor/mr you get on ITEMS+runes+masteries. It doesn't include your base. With your endgame build those 2 points were giving you 1.8 Armor and 2.7 MR - that's awful at level 18 for 2 mastery points when you could have gotten 1.5 Armor+MR at level 1 instead. Maybe just 1 point is okay because it gives a full 2% of both instead of a diminished 1.5% compared to the already-diminished flat 1.5 Armor/MR of just one). 

2- Build Mana/CDR:

You didn't build SotAG (10% CDR, HP with someone who has an HP ratio...). You did build Shrelias way later in the game for some reason.

Frozen Heart is also a really good item on these junglers that also gives a bajillion mana + CDR. You didn't build a Glacial Shroud. Now, Cho ended up building FH and so building a second one of those would have been bad. You should blame Karl for doing that. (AP Cho with blue will do more damage than jungle Naut with blue - having him take the blues while you built FH would have been more optimal).

 3- Take 2nd blue, make your power play, but give up everything afterwards. The funny thing is, there are really only two lanes you should make a power play if you take 2nd blue - botlane or midlane. If you kill the enemy mid lane, then the deficit has been made up (esp if your midlaner takes the kill + blue). If you get a good gank botlane, you can get dragon which also makes up the deficit  If you take blue then gank top... well you traded an advantage toplane for a disadvantage midlane. 

Note that giving mid blue is akin to constantly ganking them. The amount of pressure blue exerts is massive. A mid with blue can push to tower, then either roam or take Wraiths, depending on the situation. Additionally, giving blue mid gives a huge chunk of additional EXP just from blue. Remember if 2 people share EXP, they both get 70% of it. So if you give up blue, you lose 30% of your exp - and typically end up just a little short of level 6 which is a bummer.

But you're giving your mid an entire wave of EXP that they wouldn't have gotten. i have gotten 2 full levels against mids who weren't receiving blues by getting 2nd/3rd blue and taking wraiths. Without even ganking or anything you've put mid into a controlling and dominating position.

This is one of the reasons why it is a really good idea to give Energy-Users like Kennen, Zed, and Akali blue even though they don't have mana. They do benefit enormously from the levels (to prevent falling behind), and they still really really really really like the CDR and energy regen. So you should probably give them third blue. 

A midlaner that is a level behind is much weaker than a jungle that is a level behind. Because while the midlaner has to deal with someone actively trying to kill them, the jungler gets to mostly sit in the jungle and PvE. 

Of course, if your mid is losing really badly, or is against someone like Kennen (or Fiora) who can't easily push and probably isn't getting blue either, you should probably take the blue. 

The rational that Naut has awesome ganks with blue... well, even though your ganks are great and all... mid lanes are better. Mid lane has 1-3 levels on you, has just as much CC typically, and does about twice the damage. Even better than a midlane gank is a double gank with both jungle and mid. This can't happen if your mid is pinned to tower.

Falling behind in EXP? Most mids are fine with letting you take their mid farm while they do a gank on your behalf. Or letting you take their midlane while they take blue. 

If you mid is pinned to tower, and you get invaded/do invading/ they are doing dragon... they can't really react. They really can't just walk thru the minions - they'll get engaged on. They can take the long way around, but that adds 5 seconds of travel and the enemy mid is already 3-5 seconds ahead just by being in a better location in the lane. Even if they are able to react, your mid laner just lost about 100 gold + 1/3rd a level. It's basically like giving the enemy midlaner an assist each time your mid have to leave the lane while it is pushed to tower. 

#wards:

Pretty sure Ms Swan bought way too many pink wards that game. 15 pink wards???

well you want all the buffs all the time You take 17 minute reds, and you get pretty angry if you don't get 2nd blue when you're AP Yi. 

heh. 

Buffs aren't really the junglers by default after the first pass - they are team resources.  By default, the 2nd blue goes to mid, and the 3rd red goes to ADC.

There are exceptions to this (like mana less mids, or if somebody is feeding too hard), but thats the rule of thumb.  And even in those cases, giving blue to the top lane (when on that side of the map) is often preferable.

The basic idea with 2nd blue is that a domination by either mid is the single most important factor in the mid game.  If either mid gets substantially ahead, everybody on the other team should feel great pain.  Especially the jungler - trust me, you don't want to be jungling when the other mid is fed as hell and wandering all over the map.

The best way of getting your mid way behind is to not give them blue, while their opponent does get blue.  Bad things happen then, and that extra level 6 gank you might get doesn't come close to making up for it.

In that game, blue should have gone to mid.  If you didn't want to give it to GP, it should have gone to me so that I could better prevent Kha from roaming, and be able to TP without giving up towers.

Udyr never gets second blue unless mid is manaless.  He doesn't benefit from the CDR really, and he doesn't need the extra xp much, so he misses out on much of the benefit.  He is actually one of the worst mana based junglers to take second blue (he should really be trying to steal opponents second blue anyway...), especially since reasonable early mana regen items like Philo and SS work well on him.

How much time I am willing to spend camping depends on a lot of things.  Major factors include my knowledge of where enemy wards might be and how good I think that my teammate is at supporting ganks.

Well, usually i'd say 4th would go to ADC. At the 18-20 mark laning is still happening at times and even if a group is happening a lot of it is sieging, and ADCs aren't usually "going" quite enough. Putting red on a melee diver like toplane works better imo. 

http://www.rifftrax.com/rifftrax/battlefield-earth

OK - so I'm getting this.  It's the guys that do mst3k doing that to battlefield earth.  I'm going to buy it and then I'm going to stream it on my channel.  I'll let you know when I'm thinking of doing it.  BFE is one of the worst movies ever.  Pete and I were talking about it some on stream tonight (if you care, pull up tonights vid and scroll to the last 10 minutes or so).  Anyway, I saw they did a rifftracks and the full movie is actually on youtube, so I'm thinking I'll stream the whole thing... might put skype up as well so we can interact... but really - it will be quite excellent - so make some popcorn and settle in for an epic.  I'll let you know when I sort this (eg have to get the riffttrax and test out), then its just a matter of when I want to stream it. 

3 of my last 5 ranked games have had non skill related losses.  Streaming a movie?  Likely to get copyright claimed-taken down.  I know a stream that did for streaming some movies.

Just played a really fun game though.  It was epic.  We were behind/inhib down and getting pushed other lanes all day, when we go into a baron fight.  The malphite manages to kill their adc somehow, and we pull out with the baron.  There ended up being 2 smite steals by rammus, and we ended up with the win.

Hey thanks for the skin

Hehe yeah crazy stupid malphite but I owned with Kassadin - was fun

If you ever want to see absolute chaos reign, you need Brad wong's buddy frayly to jungle and to put jona and peter at bottom lane.  Jona and Peter were about ready to murder each other; Jona then decides that he will now midlane after his war with pete.  Things escalated pretty quickly... which I obviously should have seen coming.  Anyway, another 2 added to the list of people that won't be playing together in the future.  So... sorry for that folks that endured.

That said, I did appear to accidentally fall asleep while streaming the classic cinema "Cool as Ice" - http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/cool_as_ice/.

You should take a look at that review btw.  Anyway, you'll have to ff through the archived vid if you want to take a look (its the last vid I have up) - probably starts around 4-5 hours in.  I'll very, very, very likely be deleting the stream, so I suggest you check it out today or tomorrow if interested. 

@bryff - np and you are welcome.

Sorry I missed ya, swan.  Hopefully soon we shall play.

My internet at work has been super slow... I can't even let them get started downloading and watch them later at my leisure.  

I did try watching a little of the stream with Pete while the movie was playing.  That dude's a natural!  The MST3K boys should hire him...

I'm always sad because I want to play with pacov 24/7

close to last chance to check out that vid I mentioned a few posts back.  I'll prob remove at the end of the night.

With AP Kog.

Slightly more seriously.  Stay the fuck out of the jungle against a comp like that.  If you don't have a decent long range poke, you need to go tanky dps on at least two people, and stay spread.  Ward well, keep from bunching up, and wait for them to jump one of your meatwalls.  As soon as Sej burns that godawful ult, peel for your carries and assassinate theirs.

If your CC sucks and you have no decent long range poke, you don't.  They'll win any all in you initiate, and you can't force them to initiate without a poke.  The only thing you can hope for is that they're stupid and let you pick them off.