Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Napster and sour grapes

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/13/technology/ebusiness/13MUSI.html?todaysheadlines
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/12/technology/ebusiness/12NAPS.html?todaysheadlines

Contains links to what is essentially looking like the end of Napster.

Napster's success/failure and the fame of its developer, Shawn Fanning, is a touchy subject around at Stardock.

That's because a year before Napster came out, one of the early components for Object Desktop (earlier users of ODNT may remember this) was going to be "Object Recommendation" (we'd probalby have renamed it as it came closer just as WindowBlinds was originally named "Enhanced Look").

Anyway, this component would allow people to peer share files and directories to anyone else running it with full searchable features. Imagine Napster but with the ability to share any file type.

But we ultimately had to kill it because we couldn't figure out a way to eaisly keep people from sharing copyrighted material. We didn't want to make a program that would be used to pirate software and music.

As time went on, hanging out on IRC, other developers on #win32 would talk about peer sharing but they too never developed it for similar reasons.

But Shawn Fanning didn't apparently have a problem writing a program that would largley be used for pirating other people's stuff. And that seeming lack of ethics combined with 2 or so weeks of work (Napster as a program is trivial to write) created a world wide phenomenon.

Our culture has rewarded an utter lack of ethics with fame and probably fortune for the young 19 year old who wasn't stopped by pesky moral issues while others who had the idea long before him, could have done it better, were held back because it never occurred to them that it was okay to make something that could be turned into a massive piracy network.

For us, the Napster phenomenon is a real testiment of our culture. Shawn Fanning has been on the cover of countless magazines and is a house hold name in many places. I've seen his picture in Time, Newsweek, US News, People, and elsewhere. He's been labeled as a "Cyber rebel", "Freedom fighter", "Genius", "Techno visionary", etc.

The difference in America today between fame and obscurity is apparently a lack of ethics combined with 2 weeks to write a CS 101 level program.

I know lots of people reading this are probably Napster fans. But as someone whose job it is to create intellectual property, it would have been a pretty frightening new world if companies could become successful by creating things that essentially aided the theft of other creations. If Napster had succeeded, there were a long list of much worse companies lined up ready to create things that would have spelled an end to intellectual property as we know it.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1846

Brad, I'm one of the NON-fans of Napster.
As a lot would be aware, I have always stuck to the high moral ground and condemned Napster as theft...nothing more, nothing less.

Sure, like warez, it sometimes can 'feel' kewl and revolutionary to get something for nothing when you know you shouldn't, and for one reason or another, a lot of people [including myself] have been guilty of using the odd crack or two. The problem with Napster was it's supporters claimed it to be totally above-board and beyond reproach, as if it could in no way be considered illegal use of copyright. At least most would have admitted Warez was decidedly shady, but they just couldn't see the similarity to Napster...

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Well I agree with you in some cases. OK in all. It is shameful that the world today is run by people who have no problem throwing ethics out the window. It is like Lawyers having to take an ethics course. I mean really now....think about it.
But the way your article came off was that you--or Stardock is bitter because while Stardock is a big name, they aren't Napster. Not everyone knows about WinBlinds or the OD suite, but most people know about Napster even before Napster wound up in court.
To me, after reading an article in Time long ago this kid who was or is a college drop out was living off nothing and sat down one day and wrote the code. Easy? I am not at liberty to say since I am not a coder. But I can say that there are people who talk about it and people who do it. You (and I am not personally attacking you), but you say that at least 2 people thought of the idea before but were held back because of ethics. I see it as there were two people that discussed it and Shawn Fanning just shrugged his shoulders and looked around and thought--I should really do something because I am hungry and I live in a major dump. OK So did he consider the piracy issue? Possibly, but maybe he figured it was out of his hands. Nothing was stored or shared on his computer and what is done with Napster isn't his problem. Perhaps that is what he thought. Maybe at the ripe age of 19 (you remember being a 19 year old boy?), well yeah at that age the world is all about them and they can't ever be wrong. I mean go to IRC one night--or hey join me at devart and check to see where teenagers are today. It's all about them and the world is technically against them so they have to find a way to screw over the system before they feel the system screws over them.
You see I don't think stealing is right and i don't agree with piracy but a boy had a vision that perhaps others had and HE ran with it. Whether the code is easy to write or not is no longer the issue. He did it, made it a household name, and he is probably still pretty well off (if business 101 taught him anything that is).
It is like me coming here and looking at someone's wallpaper and saying Oh I could have done that. Now maybe I could have maybe not but since it is already out there I will never reproduce that because I don't want to rip someone's work. But I can try my best to convince the world that every great idea was mine at one time but I didn't have the time, lack of ethics or whatever to do it.
I don't doubt you would be able to make it, but it really does sound like a child saying that you had that idea first you just didn't do it because you were playing the bigger man.
Sorry if that is harsh but that is how I read it.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1846

Ah, so it's OK to be a criminal or to at least aid and abet, as long as you are willing to be first....

Good.
I'm off to think of a crime that no-one else has thought of yet, cos then I can legitimately live off the proceeds, and it's OK, cos I'm a destitute bum who knows no better....

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The music industry definetely needs to let off of Napster. They are getting no where in these law suits. I would not be surprised if the music industry actually lost money due to the shut down of Napster.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

I am a developer and I can tell you that writing Napster is a trivial thing.

From my standpoint, it's a matter of walking by a bunch of store windows and thinking "Well, sure, I could just throw a rock through and break that window and steal the stuff inside but that would be wrong."

Indeed, while the rest of us looked at that store window, we walked by. But not Shawn, he picked up that rock and threw it through the window and yelled "Hey guys, free stuff!" and some called him a hero.

No one here regrets not having done Object Recommendation. The sour grapes has to do with the culture we live in -- the culture that gives recognition to those who don't deserve it. To a non-technical person, peer sharing ala Napster wasn't a "vision", it was discussed heavily on IRC all the time by warez people. But all said the same thing "I wouldn't want to write that, I'd get my ass sued off." and that's ultimately what has happened to Napster. But not before a 19 year old got fame and fortune.

Yea, I was 19 years old once, I started a Stardock when I was in college to make extra money to help pay for school. But I didn't build it on the basis of stealing from others.

It speaks volumes of society in terms of ignorance and anti-intellectualism that someone who essentially invents a way to loot stores without getting caught becomes a hero and famous and world reknowned. It's sure a poor lesson in ethics for the next generation.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

BTW Flummox, are you sure you really think it's good that people DO things without thinking of the ethical consequences of those actions?

I like to think of myself as a "do-er" but before I "do" something, I try to think of the consequences of those actions.

Some crazies thought about bombing federal buildings I'm sure. Timothy McVeigh was a do-er too. He went ahead and did it and become very famous and a hero to some too. Do you look up to him too? Do I sound like a child for thinking it's bad that Timothy Mcveigh is a hero to some and world famous?

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Blame the Users, and not the software. Keep the blame where it belongs. There are many a Systems Admin, that would rather Stardock and WB, never touched their machines.

I feel the authors have a right to their works, but let's just remember, Mickey Mouse and Disney. Didn't the copywright run out, on old Short Pants? And what happened there? $$$ bought the Government out on that one.
Fair-use, must always be remembered.
The Industry really didn't care, when the quality was crap, and low. I pay for a subscription, to a sattelite, company, and record alot of my material, from the channels, of music. I consider this to be similar to using a digital VCR.

Also, while we're on about this, how come we do not hear, about the Class Action Lawsuit, against the Music Industry, for price fixing CD's since the early 1990's. Why, because the Music Industry is hand in hand with the Printed Media and the News Outlets. It's kind'a like the pot calling the Kettle Black, isn't it?

Now I might tick alot, of you folks off, about this, but please keep the blame where it belongs.

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No Jafo I didn't say it was ok. If I even remotely stated that it was ok to do a crime as long as you are the first then I am sorry. that wasn't meant to sound that way. I guess I can see how it can be.
Frogboy--I also didn't say it was right to do and throw ethics out the window...I only said it was how the world is ran most of the time.
I give you Congressman Condut (sp) of the Chandra Levey case, Bill Clinton, OJ Simpson. Two of those aid in running our country. Though Clinton didn't murder anyone he screwed up and lied about it.
You see I have very strong morals and very high ethics. If you knew me you'd know that. But I am also not stupid. I know that the world is full of unethical people and I cannot change that but I can do my part and help by not doing it.
Do I think napster was a good thing? no...mp3.com was a good thing. I think Napster was a way for people to screw the system just a little more and Shawn Fanning gave each of us the tools to do it.
NEVER did I say he was right and you were wrong. All I said against your post was that it sounded like "i thought of that too only better but decided not to do it." That is what it sounded like. Shawn Fanning had no thought of ethics. Who am I to say he is unethical, but I can say he didn't think of it and now as he stands beside his high priced attorney he too will soon realize that he must think before he does.
He was young and still is actually. At 19 it is not about what can happen it is about what it means for him. I seriously doubt Shawn Fanning sat down that day and said "how can i screw the music industry and make people happy."
I'm almost positive this will be twisted and misread but either way crime is wrong, stealing is wrong, and ethics don't exist in enough people today.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Who are you to say he was unethical? Anyone who knows the difference between right and wrong can say he was unethical.

When I was 19, I ran BBSes and didn't care warez on it because I knew it was wrong.

Are you saying that a 19 year old doesn't know the difference between right and wrong?

The sour grapes part of my post is how it often sucks to have to do the right thing. In our case, doing the right thing was not creating Object Recommendation.

Unlike so often in fiction, in the real world, doing the wrong thing oftne has great rewards as Shawn Fanning's fame has demonstrated.

Shawn knew what he was doing, he spoke at length of it on IRC (that's where "Napster" comes from, it was his IRC handle). He wanted an easier way to get pirated music. And while he was at it, he made it easier for everyone to get pirated music.

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Not everyone is a saint. And some things have less tangible repercussions to them than others. All digital stuff is one of those things. If I copy something, I make a copy of something, the original is still there. So to most people, copying mp3's, programs or skins and redistributing them is not seen as theft.

It's very unlike phsysical stuff. If I take your car, you haven't got it anymore, so it's understandable you want it back and what I am doing is wrong. If I make a copy of it you'd still have the car, so nothings wrong, right?

craeonics stops typing, 'cos this is way too much text

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Hmm, probably gonna get my butt kicked on this one; but, considering the wealth of music out there in the world, I've found it very hard, (sometimes impossible), to find certain artists in CD stores down here in South Africa. There are two alternatives, Napster-type distribution methods [cheap], and having it specially imported [real expensive].
I'm not condoning piracy, but something definately needs to be done to make buying lesser-known underground artists.

Basically, the point I'm trying, (or failing), to make is that until distribution methods improve, the insentive to use peer-2-peer music sharing is not going to go away.

Few, ok. I'm ready to be flamed now....

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on saturday morning cartoons, every time somebody does the right thing that has short term pain they get rewarded in the long term adn vice versa. but in the real world kids like fanning do the wrong thing and get rewarded in the long term. it's sad but true.

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Whether you like it or not, music piracy is popular, not that its right... and as long as someone out there wants to get away with getting something for nothing, there will always be pirating of whatever... music, movies, games, etc. so until someone finds a way to stop all pirating, i say join in the spoils! hurray for Audiogalaxy! hehee...

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I think the music industry made this more popular than it was by bringing attention to it to the masses. Before the lawsuits were announced on the news I had no idea what Napster was.

Then I find out you can get a computer with a CD writer, download music, and make your own CD's. Sounded too good to be true. It matters not to me whether it's right or wrong, life is short and then you're worm food. And I don't see the cops knocking at my door. It's here to stay and it's not going away.

The more P2P services that are sued out of existence or shut down 20 more pop up to take their place. The record industry takes the majority of the profits from the "intellectual material", they're the theives, $20 for a CD with 2 or 3 songs on it I like? Forget it. I even got DSL, I can download a song in 20 seconds and make a CD with ALL the songs I like on it, from download to burn in under 30 minutes. Musicmatch (which I paid for) even has cool jewel case software. So that alone covers the $49 a month for the DSL line. I think I've bought enough overpriced CD's with 90% filler material for a lifetime.

Now with the advent of DVD-R's, movies are next. I know a lot of you think people like me are a thief, don't sit on your high horse and pass judgement on others, you know you've downloaded mp3's, if you say you haven't you're fibbing.

Another point is the sale of CD's hasn't suffered from this, and now the RIAA is getting into P2P because they know if they don't they'll go the way of the Dodo. This same thing happened with the VCR in the 80's, do people still go to the movies? Yes. Furthermore, someone has to be buying the music, I have over 200 CD's that I've converted to mp3's, not the whole CD of course, only the hits, which equals out to be about 1/8 of the songs on the CD's.

By the way NeoRamasay, Morpheus is the best...hehe.

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JcRabbit

Join Date 03/2001

+290

> Blame the Users, and not the software. Keep the blame where it belongs.

If you were a software developer, Cygnus, you would not say that. Just the other day I had this argument with some cracker kid in Russia (yes, I still waste my breath trying to talk to them from time to time)... His final argument was that he wasn't making any money out of it and that it was people who used the cracks he made that did all the damage, not him.

I pointed out that this was the same as someone breaking into a locked house, opening all the doors and windows and then shouting 'hey, everyone, come and steal what you want!' without him actually stealing anything. In real life this joker would get himself kicked into jail faster than I can say 'thief' (as would the guys who actually took something).

> Though Clinton didn't murder anyone he screwed up and lied about it.

Oh boy. Sorry flummox, I never could understand this point of view. What did Americans expected him to do? Say 'Yes, I cheated on my wife and it's probably not the first time?'. Huh?! It's nobody's business but his and his wife, for Christ sake - it's his private life! Even the most beloved American President, John F.Kennedy, was well known for having had an affair with Marilyn Monroe (among many many others, btw). Heck, I bet most of those who were busy pointing fingers at Clinton did the same (or worse) at one point or another of their lives.

You know what? 'He who has never sinned cast the first stone'. The whole thing was ridiculous for us outside of the US (and I'm sure for a lot of you in the US as well). Never seen so much hypocrisy put together.

If you want to blame Clinton for something, then blame him for NOT standing up for himself saying 'What business is it of yours, anyway?!' in the first place.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1846

rda7, if I were ever to use Napster, or a similar proggy, I would use a non-free one....one I had to pay for, then I'd take a wander over to Asta******* and locate a crack for it....just so I could be sure to enjoy the irony of the situation...

As for Clinton....he wasn't a wanker....he had others to do that for him...

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Clinton lied to the American people. If it were me I would have said it was none of yer g-damned business. but he chose to lie about it. But I don't care about that no more. Napster was invented for the purpose of theft. The guy who created it isn't a hero. That some choose to see him as a ''visionary'' says a lot more about society than anything else.

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