"Just because you think someone who USES your stuff is as much a customer as someone who pays for your stuff doesn't make you right. You are entitled to your opinion but I don't agree with it. Someone who USES your stuff is a user. But they're not a customer. There is a difference"
Frogboy......WOW do really believe that? I would expect that concept to discourage growth of your customer base. I agree that there is an obvious difference in the level of support or even an obligation to any support with respect to paying customers verses users. However, if I have a bad experience as a user chances are I won't be a customer.

sidenote: I don't consider myself in the group of people you are describing. I am a customer that has never felt the need to make demands here and has been mostly satisfied with the products and services.

Also, with respect to users that make demands (and customers that make respectful requests for that matter). Could they be candidates for a poll? I know there is a poll section on the main page but maybe an expanded poll page where ideas (or demands) can fly or die based on what the majority wishes. Of course even some good ideas might be impracticle and cannot be implemented but it may take some of the heat off of you and share it with the "idea guys".

It's startling to see how many people seem to agree with the "customer is always right" policy. And even more when trying to define someone who doesn't exchange anything, in this case money, as a customer.

I don't see why a company should have to go by the "that's how it works" credo. A company that is worthwile is a company that has a vision, that provides something to people and permits it's creators/sustainers to accomplish themselves in the process.

Businesses of the like of McDonalds are the epitome of bad business. Don't look at the profits, look at the social impact. Indecent salaries. Workers who don't give a damn about the company they work for or what they offer. Owners who are nothing more than distant shareholders who really don't give a rat's ass about making food for people, just how they can make the most profit out of it. Customers who have no respect because they're untouchable. And then it trickles down to users thinking they are customers.

To hell with that outdated model, it doesn't do any good to anyone, and you don't have to follow it to be successful. And talking about it here is very appropriate, might make people rethink about their relation, behavior and impact on businesses.

For the case of Steven's blog, or anything free, and it just gets even more outrageous.

Never do jobs with family and friends!!!
I have asked several skinners about custom builded SysMetrix and also there own IconPackager and you know what!? Not once am I been told, NO!
Simply because I comment there work, tell them that I find it great(which I do) and follow the line that Froggy lay down! If my english was better I could had wrote the same eccept that with the multi-million dollar business.
So ask nice instead of demand, no matter if you are user or customer.

I think the problem stems from a common misuse of "Customer."
Customer is being equated with Patronage or User

..Customer
1 : a person or business that purchases a commodity or service
..Patronage
1. Special countenance or support favor, encouragement, or aid, afforded to a person or a work as, the patronage of letters patronage given to an author.
2. Business custom.
..User
1. One who uses
2. (Law) Enjoyment of property use

Now with those definitions adhered to Brad has a point. No matter what you want to say about the practices, malparactices or models He chooses to employee, He is correct. People that get and use ObjectDock for Free, are not Customers. They are using a Product at the Patronage of StarDock. StarDock encourages this at the possibility of enlarging its' Customer Base, by converting their Patrons into Customers, via incentives touted in the "Plus" Version of its' Products. If the User so chooses they might purchase the product and then "feel" they have the right for imput. Now Imput is an important thing to get from your Customers, and the Comapany that does not listen to that Imput is doomed to fail. Let's all be real for just a minute, and face facts. Wincustomize is a business. JoeUser is a business. StarDock is a business. People do not open Business's to lose money. Not for long anyways.
Brad made a home for the Skinz.org Crowd, creating WinCustomize and that was great but he also converted a disolute crowd into a solidified market, community and developer base. Alot of folks are new, here and were not around during those days, so they do not understand how close to homeless we all were. (So to speak.) Now I usually try to keep my mouth shut, when I get free things as ( I DO) know my place in that respect. Never look a gift horse in the mouth, is what I was taught. The one thing I do have to say in the favour of the ObjectDock (and any free product) Users is they also in turn provide something. They provide feed back as to features, opsys problems, bug issues. They create content of which StarDock and Wincustomize, and the actual End User (Customer) partake. This is their Value, if folks want to discount that, then that is thier loss, but it is of a value none the less. The mistake being made is that it is and was not stated strongly enough that the Free Products, when used entitles the User No Priveledges whatsoever. Give someone and inch and they will take a mile. That being said, and this Conversation goingalong the path that it is following. It must now be assumed, that the Paying Customers (folks that either have a Subscription to the Object desktop, Wincustomize, WinCust Browser, Sanctioned Suite Package, or other Product produced by StarDock or its' Subsidieries), has the right to voice an opinion.
Now this does not gaurentee them the right to be listened to, nor does it imply that Brad or anyone actually gives a hoot. But it does delineate the Wheat from the Chaff, and defines what this whole thing actually is about.
As a Payed in full Subscriber to the Object Desktop, I have voiced my opinion as to the ObjectDock Plus not being included in the Object Desktop. I also feel that Desktop X Pro, is a slight to the Customer. I accept that Objectdock is not a part of the ObjectDesktop, and was not Developed as such, but DesktopX is in the ObjectDesktop so it's Pro version and any subsequent version should be also included. I paid for that and upgrades for a year, "Pro" sounds like an upgrade to me.

The following defines my Logic, just so it is not assumed I pulled my beliefs from thin air.
https://www.stardock.net/media/odntwhitepaper.html

(this part is right above the Component Manager Description, and is the Crux of my beliefs, as it is one of the reasons I choose to purchase a Suscription. Also of note that since it is tauted, that Objectdock is not included into the Desktop Subscription, that belies the fact of its' exclusion, therefore doesn't the following ensure the inclusion of all DesktopX development and features as to part of a Customers Subscription?)

Bear in mind, all of this is currently for $49.95. And users also get everything we develop or update for it for an additional year via their ObjectDesktop.net subscription. At the end of the year, users can continue to receive new features and updates for $34.95 for each additional year.
Advantages of ObjectDesktop.NET

When a user purchases Object Desktop they also get a one year subscription to ObjectDesktkop.net (ODNT). One might say that Object Desktop is always a work in progress because the features of it are constantly improving and increasing on a day to day basis. As Windows gets new features and new abilities, Object Desktop advances to support those features.

It is unfortunate that things have come to the point that it has, but alas here we are.

Now I as a Paying Subscriber have said my piece. Thank you for the time and space made available to do so. Don't mean to piss on anyones' shoes, just stating MY points, as a paying Customer and showing that not everyone that has been here for a long time, is subservient or cowtowed, or afraid to speak thier piece.

I have read this entire thread and also the JoeUser Blog. I have run serveral Businesses' for different People, and Undersstand where you are coming from. The Customer is not always right, but the Customer must never know that you know that, (you being the Producer of goods.) The job of the Producer is to educate the Consumer, would be Customer and the User. when there is an issue that the User / Customer is wrong, a Good Producer/ Business Person would bring the User/ Consumer around to understanding thier error with the User/ Consumer believing that they came to the Rightfull Conclusion themselves. Like I said, the distinctions is lost on those that percieve themselves as Customers, owing to a misguided understanding of the word itself. This dilution of the understanding of "Customer" has been compounded by media, misuse from lack of education and general laziness of mind. Customer has become synonomous with consumer as consumer has become with User, or so the average person would have us believe. Like I stated in one of the Forum articles, (the almost gun issue), when it says .com on the end ..there is no such thing as a right to voice an opinion. This belief is very arrogant of us Americans when it comes to the Free Speech Issue anyways. Not everyone has that ability, and those that do not have it are probably more than likely to show restraint in issues at hand. Alot of the Issues that arise come from arrogance and ignorance (IMHO.) Where one is the other is not far behind.
We all know that is a person really wants to use a particular software product, it is not all that hard for them to obtain, albeit the version they obtain will be bootleg, and they will be flirting with the issue of copyright infringment. That is a "to each his own" problem in and of itself. Users of Bootleg software fall into the same catagory as the freebies, and have no rights to representation also. I try to look at both sides of the issue. Not saying that the "Freebies" have no Value, like I stated previously they do provide somethings, the same as legitimate Customers. Content Developed by the Users of the free Version have a significant Value, it is the Stock and Trade of Wincustomize. But that is another conversation, for another time.

I understand also StarDock wanting to differentiate the levels between DesktopX Versons, but that is a bill of goods not sellable to me. The Website clearly states a given fact and irregardless of the monetary fact you cliam, The Pro version is a Version of DesktopX, developed during a Subscribers time period, and it is an upgrade to the Version included in the Object Desktop.
I hate for StarDock to lose revenues, so I think the Whitepaper site should be changed, posthaste, and any Subscribers (Currently)that want the DesktopX Pro should be allowed to have it, with the proviso that it must remain for NonCommercial use. Any New Subscriptions should or could be of a dual Nature.
Stardock ObjectDesktop Standard, ObjectDesktop Pro and Objectdesktop Developers Edition. The latter would be privy to the DesktopX Pro package, and any other Dev Items that you come up with, or decide to release to the population. I understand you do not want to dilute the ObjectDesktop brand to much, three levels does not seem to diluted.

In all realities and to be honest about the deal, I do not care as it stands, in as much as I want the DesktopX Plus myself. Mainly because It has become a prize to me, and everyone wants the brass ring. One of the things I pointed out to the Wife when I purchased the OD, was the very statements made in the WhitePaper. I am sorry that late in the Game you want to change the rules.
It's your product do with it as you will. I have waited for this opportunity to speak on this issue as I knew it would allow itself to be discussed eventualy, after this you will hear no more from me. Also of a side note, I sent you an email about a week ago, and have not recieved a reply. I understand if you do not want to reply, and that you must receive alot of unsolicited emails, and are busy... Just wanted to check with you though.

First off, I do want to apologize for coopting Brads thread, but as I thought this was a good place to add my 2 cents, I did.

OK, I guess I am not making myself understood properly. Also before we resort to name calling and defining ones beliefs as absurd. I will make it understood in PLAIN English. I am a Greedy Customer, yes, greed is good. Without Greed there would be no Pockets, also without Greed there would be no incentive to excel, design, innovate or anything of that sort.I am also a logical Customer, and willing to cede the point that OD Plus is of an inordinate value, a real gem if you will. I am not here to define my "Not Having DX Pro." I am making my case as to why I should have it, as well as hoping to help rectify any situation that could arise in the future by StarDock being vague in its' ObjectDesktop Subscription description.

What part of this is not clear?

And users also get **everything we develop or update** for it for an additional year via their ObjectDesktop.net subscription. At the end of the year, users can continue to receive new features and updates for $34.95 for each additional year.

"Everything we Develop" is the Key Here. As DexktopX is and was Developed for the ObjectDesktop, is is logical to construe its' inclusion. I stated earlier that as ObjectDock was not a part of the ObjectDesktop, I was in error when I felt it was not included via the SDCentral application. Cedeing this point does not negate the other point about DesktopX, it defines the point exactly.
Being told that you cannot have one because it was never meant to be included, and then being told that you cannot have the other because even though it is included (it's parent ie..also any derivatives) it is too expensive, is illogical, and a false assumtion. by trying to deflect the issue in pointing out my not having, and wanting this application is also a factor is also illogical and misleading.
I am not asking for a definition of what is felt to be the completion of a Subscriptions task. I am asking for software that was mentioned as being included in my Subscription. I am further pointing out that there is a way to remedy the Situation and similar situations in the future. What does it cost Brad? Right now, nothing. I mean he doesn't loose sales on Software I never bought. He has mentioned time and again the boondoggles that StarDock has been in and lost money too. He can always say"No", and then deal with that as it arises. tell me I am Wrong," I think not Sir." We can respectfully disagree, but a black and white, plain English Description of the ObjectDesktop does not support any suppositions you feel to impose upon my current belief that I am right.

On your final point.I appluad StarDock for not raising the price of OD. i also applaud the Up and Coming right click program. Might be neat but I will hold judgement as I rely heavily on my original contect menu for zipping, queing media, and customized "Send to" Menus'. So how that functions is a big curiosity to me. I wonder is it going to be another piece of the OD that I have no Need for. I purchased OD for Windowblinds, DesktopX, and Iconpackager mainly.

What it comes down to is that you can talk till you are blue in the face, and you will not convince me that something stated on Stardocks Websites, in plain english is wrong, and convolutely that I am wrong.

Once again brad, I am sorry to continue, but will not defer my opinion on this one bit. I agree with the other statements as to Users not having a weighted, voice when it comes to matters concerning Paying Customers.

BTW, Cygnus, the system lists you as a level 2 user.  You should connect your WC account to your customer account so that you can get more benefits on WC.

You highlight the wrong part of the sentence:
And users also get **everything we develop or update** for it for an additional year via their ObjectDesktop.net subscription. At the end of the year, users can continue to receive new features and updates for $34.95 for each additional year.

You should highlight the entirety: everything we develop or update for it (it being Object Desktop). 

When a user purchase Object Desktop, they get everything already available on Object Desktop plus everything we develop for Object Desktop for an additional year.  At no time did we ever imply that we would start including $500 products into the $50 product. I think most users "get this".

When someone purchases Object Desktop, they get DesktopX. But we never implied they would get DesktopX Pro. And DesktopX Pro, as others have pointed out, is designed to create applications.  Object Desktop is not designed to be a software development product. It is a desktop environment (and those specific words are used all over the place).

I agree that what we say on the website is very easy to understand. But that doesn't seem to stop some percentage of people from misreading it.  I am not sure how one can possibly reasonably parse that "everything we develop for it" and "everything we develop" are the same things.  I mean heck, while you're at it, why not trim out the first part and just say "everything" and complain that we aren't handing over property and gold and jewels!  

In short, I think our meaning is pretty clear.  When you buy Object Desktop you get everything that's already available plus anything we add to it while you're subscribing.  Last year that meant things like IconDeveloper and Keyboard LaunchPad (along with updates to most everything).  This year it means upgrades to key components, Theme Manager, Stardock Central, Right-Click, WebExplorer, and more.

You don't have to agree with our point of view.  But ultimately we don't have to agree.

Damn Filter!

Cygnus, one thing I'm still not clear on - have you previously purchased Object Desktop or the other Stardock products?

I have been around for a pretty long time, as a matter of fact. I remember when CursorX was a baby. Shoggot Modded Skinz.org and Bashed folks' Heads. Was involved in Heavy Equipment Suite and Did the CursorX theme for that. Did some small stuff for DesktopX, when it was a baby. Unfortunately I never backed that stuff up and only posted to Skinz.org at the time. I only did one thing for here that I can remember and it was pretty raw.

I don't mind purchasing the programs that I use EVERYDAY on my pc...How would I feel if I came home from work every week and didn't get a paycheck...Yet people demanded all my time and effort be put to good use while I am there...well I don't think too many of us would be happy at all. I LOVE THIS SITE and I do appreciate all the hard work and time that ALL of the authors and creators here put into it just for my pc to be beautful and functional the way I CHOOSE. Thank you thank you thank you. There are lots of us out here that STILL care!

Attila, I only wish there were more people like you who are able to intelligently articulate an opposing point of view.

And one day, with a skin sample, I'll have an army of Attilas. Whohaha.