MacOS X Tiger Screenshots » Forum Post by Frogboy

HA!!!! desktop widgets???? now who's 'ripping off' who?? oh man, this is truly hilarious

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Go to dictionary.com and look up widget. The word was first coined back in the early 90's. Apple just capitolized on Konfabulator's inability to achieve mainstream success and failure to copywright anything. This sort of thing happens all the time.

Nice shots by the way, a friend of mine was at WWDC and got a copy, and it's really nice, for those of you who like eye-candy (we are a customization site, right?).

Some of the effects remind me of Looking Glass, Xerox's new OS. Really awesome awesome stuff. I heard MS is working on an improved Search for Longhorn. It's funny, cuz I didn't know that Searching was really something that computer users care about so much. I use the search tool on my Compaq about once in a blue moon (mostly because that friggin dog annoys me).

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Okay, let's set the record straight here... The Dashboard is nothing more than an updated version of Apple's own Desk Accessories that have been popular since way back in the early 1980's (In fact they were first invented by Andy Hertzfield in 1981). Desk accessories were small widgets/mini-apps. Back in System 1.0 when the original Macs could only really run one app at a time, you had a special method of accessing these mini-apps so if you needed a calculator, notepad, time clock/alarm, etc... you didn't need to quit the main app and go hunting for the applet you needed.

http://www.folklore.org/projects/Macintosh/images/desk_accessories.gif

Dashboard is just an extension of this today accessed via a special layer of Expose instead of a special menu.

Konfabulator was hardly doing anything innovative. If they looked like normal Apple apps rather than appearing as jazzed up applets like they do now, I doubt anyone would be making the comparison.

However, Apple is showing really bad taste here by making them look the way they do, imo. I'm not one of those "zealots" that think everything is perfect in Apple-land. I know several high up employees at Apple really liked Konfabulator, or so the story goes, so obviously they wanted to go for a similar style.

Frankly, I think the look of most of them is a tad UGLY. I would have preferred a standard Aqua look myself.

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I think I'd be willing to call myself an Apple-Afficionado... not really your definition of zealot, because I know that Apple isn't always perfect, and I know that other companies can achieve perfection too (like Pixar! haha just kidding). But I do feel a certain extremely high degree of loyalty to the mac platform. Owning a Mac is very much like owning a Porche. Porche owners feel very powerful, eccentric, luxurious when they buy and use their cars. This is much like mac users. When I see a person walking around with a powerbook in their grasp and the little white cords for their iPod across their chests, I think of that person as being much more sophisticated, stylish, trendsetting, whatever than someone walking around with a Dell. Because MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people have Dells. But only a few have macs. Whether it's based on the cost, the compatibility, the practicality, whatever, Mac users are a niche group. And we know it.

I guess on the reverse side, many people feel the same way about their custom built PCs as they do...say, an old Bronco, or an old Chevy. They are also very loyal to that brand. So calling mac users "Mac-zealots" is really a hypocritical point, because while we may loive to bask in the glory that is our superior OS and absolutely stunning designs, Windows users also love to bask in their overclocked custom built PC.

Just my two cents.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

I think the litmus test is this: Would Dashboard have been put into Tiger if Konfabulator didn't exist. We'll never know but my opnion is no.

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I agree FB, Konfab must have been a HUGE influence for Apple.

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Frogboy, the real question is: Would Konfabulator even exist if it wasn't for Desk Accessories in the first place?

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PixelPirate

Join Date 07/2003

+17

PixelPirate thinks Konfabulator wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for DesktopX. All that DesktopX does and a lot less is what Konfabulator does. Desk Accessories or not.

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The widgets look horrid, IMO. Tiger itself looks...well...not great. Not even GOOD for that matter. Same old same old if you ask me.

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I'm a Mac owner also... but IMHO it's a niche for the largest group of zealots I've ever come across, who are annoying and pedantic.

macrobaye's comment is a prime example. Owning a Mac is like owning a Porsche hahahah lmao! Porches are bought by people over 50 trying recapture their youth. Mac owners in this analergy are more like Porche Boxter owners.. i.e. can't afford (not quite as Mac's are overpriced) or don't know what a decent sports car is.

I must admit I can't stand being a part of the Mac 'niche' sometimes.

Thankfully I also have a top end PC and OD subscription.

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Mac is ok. I am a pc user 100%, but it seems like apple is always having a new os. Mac OS 10.3 came out maybe 6 months ago? It silly. At least microsoft it working on a better OS but has to fix securtiy issue. I will use linux long before I will use MAC OS 10.3

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macrobaye, you can lose the dog. You don't have to use the search assistant.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

I don't think desktop accessories were an inspiration at all. DesktopX predates Konfabulator and I can say for a fact that we weren't inspired by Apple's desktop accessories. Heck, I didn't even know about them until this whole thing came up.

Konfabulator isn't even mainly about putting mini apps on your desktop. It's about providing a flexible environment where non programmers can create useful things relatively easily. It's much the same goal as DesktopX except that DesktopX's scope is much larger (i.e. make a widget or build a desktop or anything in between).

I feel pretty certain that some marketing guy at Apple saw how much attention Konfabulator was getting and watned to have some visually gee-wiz thing to entice people to 10.4 and lifted Konfabulator. It sounds like Dashboard is going to be better implemented but they still ripped off one of their developers pretty well. Just like they did with Sherlock with Watson.

I wouldn't really give Apple a hard time if Apple and their users didnt' make such a stink whenever Microsoft was inspired by something Apple did. Apple, afterall, opened the door with a "Redmond: Start your photocopiers" even as Apple is copying from its own ISVs.

Nobody likes a hypocrite.

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Exactly Frogboy, but you missed a bunch of things:

Apple offered jobs to those who developed Watson even before they made Sherlock into a full Search Assistant, but those jobs were declined. Arlo Rose, the creator of Konfabulator, worked with Apple in the developement of their OS back in the late 80s and early 90s, specifically on Desk Accessories. So if he's really got no argument at all.

About your last comment, you do realise that you were the first to say "I hate how Apple users make a stink about blah blah blah"... you started the argument and made it a big deal. No one at Apple has said anything about Microsoft since they blatantly copied the OS back when both companies started. The posters at WWDC were just attempts at humor, even MS junkies should get a laugh at that.

Don't get all huffy about things like this, Frogboy, when we all know that the only original idea the folks at Redmond have ever had was the idea to rip off the Mac OS in the first place. Remember:

Nobody likes a hypocrite.

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Not a very wise thing to say to someone who gave APPLE the idea for Aqua in the FIRST place.

After all, Stardock was making ALL of this stuff in the early and mid 90's on OS/2. Well, most of it.

So stop trolling and go back to your Mac forums. You've no business here with the crap you keep spouting.

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Hate to break it to you "Big Doug" but OS/2 and Stardock's work for it have absolutely no relation to Aqua AT ALL. I know, every single one of my systems that ran OS/2 back then had Stardock software slapped all over it. Great stuff but not reminiscent of Aqua or OS X in the slightest.

As far as mac users posting here... if there are articles about Apple then there will, obviously, be posts from Mac users. Don't want Mac users here? Get rid of all the Mac related articles.

The bottom line is that everybody rips something off of everybody else and they ALL have claimed the word "innovation" at one point or another.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Macrobaye writes: No one at Apple has said anything about Microsoft since they blatantly copied the OS back when both companies started.

Macrobaye:

You really need to get your facts straight:

http://www.macminute.com/2004/06/27/tigerbanners

Macrobaye: Don't you get tired of being proven wrong? If you just spent a slight about of energy looking up your data you would realize you're totally wrong. Just like you were wrong when you falsely claimed DesktopX ripped off Konfabulator when DesktopX preceded Konfabulator by over TWO YEARS.

Apple has made a career out of blasting everyone (including Stardock btw) for "stealing" their stuff. When in fact apple is just as inclined to rip off others.

I am one of those people that loudly argue that Microsoft borrows ideas and concepts from others all the time. But it is Apple who claims that they are different. That they are innovators. In reality, they're not. They borrow and steal from others as well. Which is par for the course in the software industry. But Apple is unique in that they hypocritically claim to be innovators.

Mark my words that once Tiger gets out tehre that you'll have a bunch of Mac zealots flaming DesktopX and Samurize and other PC programs that predate Dashboard by claiming that these programs ripped off Dashboard. Just like Mac zealots used to claim that WindowFX stole its alpha blended shadows from Aqua or that DesktopX stole zoomers from Apple (even though DX precedes Aqua).

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Actually FROGBOY!!! I mentioned those banners in my friggin' post!

SO NO, YOU NEED TO GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!

Don't you just hate being wrong all the time!?

I think Apple has every right to blast stardock! They set up a site where more than half the stuff uploaded is of "Aqua" style and probably about 1/20 of the stuff on here is directly related to the Apple OS! Now don't get me wrong, I LOVE THIS SITE, but you really need to open your eyes Frogboy... maybe you'll catch more flies then

Mark my words, FROGBOY, that once Tiger does come out, NO ONE will be claiming that. We all know that everyone wishes their OS could do what the Apple OS does. I mean, that's what DX is for right? The BIG DIFFERENCE is that DX isn't integrated software? Do you know what that means? That means that it takes up much more RAM than integrated software, like Dashboard and Quartz and CoreImage. And WE ALL KNOW that PC users can't afford to spend any more RAM, their crappy OS already eats up most of it.

Listen, Frogboy, I can admit when I am wrong:

I was wrong about Konfab predating DX (ALTHOUGH Arlo Rose, creator of Konfab, worked for Apple on Desk Accessories long before DX was even in development!).

But you need to know when you're wrong too: You were wrong to say that I didn't know of Apple's banners at WWDC, because if you actually read my previous post (you can read...can't you?) you would know that I mentioned them!

You were wrong to bitch about mac users bitching, because: you bitched about them in the first place! If you don't want mac users to make comments, stop enticing them to post comments! And stop copying their visual style!

I'm ready to stop whenever you're ready to stop. I think this is just crappy and immature, and I think you know it too.

DX, Konfab, Dashboard, who cares. You don't see Netscape attacking Google for stealing their "Search engine" idea!

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The BIG DIFFERENCE is that DX isn't integrated software? Do you know what that means? That means that it takes up much more RAM than integrated software, like Dashboard

Okay, that's a fairly ridiculous thing to say... I don't think Mac OS X is any less resource hungry than Windows XP (though I will say that X does seem to handle lower end Macs a lot better than XP does lower end PC's but that's beside the point). Neither one is a decent shower with less than 256MB and that's just enough for the OS.

On top of that, just because something is included "in the box" doesn't mean it's better... WindowBlinds is a beautiful case in point. Last time I checked, it uses far less resources and is still far quicker than XP's built in skinning yet all the while capable of doing far more.

Really, macrobaye, I think your points are starting to flail in the wind.
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Back to the point... here's another good read on the topic: http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator

I find one thing very interesting about Dashboard. The Widgets are actually just webpages (HTML+CSS+JS). You can find the Tiger widgets on at least one website on the 'net... and most of the run right in my Safari browser. I think this would make it incredibly easy to make new widgets if you're already a proficient web developer.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Macrobaye: Come on, some of your assertions border on the ridiculous.

You think "more than half" the stuff on WinCustomize is Mac related? Holy cow that's amazingly arrogant and ignorant at the same time. While there are certainly Mac inspired stuff on the site, that's no different than the Mac customization sites that have Windows inspired stuff on it too.

And you clearly have no understanding of DesktopX. First you wrongly claim DesktopX was a rip off of Konfabulator and then you claim DesktopX is to help Windows users make it more like a Mac. Do you even know what DesktopX is? I'm pretty sure DesktopX came out BEFORE MacOS X. If you look through its themes and objects you'll find very little that is Mac-related.

And clearly you have little understanding of software development. Do you even know what "integrated" means? Just because the OS vendor bundles something with the OS doesn't mean its smaller. Look at Windows XP. You can save about 2 megabytes of RAM just by using WindowBlinds and running Luna.

And let's remember, presently, MacOS X doesn't even have anything equivalent to DesktopX. That is what Dashboard hopes to partially do. And even then it'll still be quite weak as it can only handle the widget aspect of it.

I'm certainly willing to admit that I didn't notice your mention of the Mac banners. I am, however, mystified that you would not recognize that it's hypocritical for Apple to claim Redmind rips them off even as they rip off Konfabulator.

Windows has its own desktop accessories too (which were ripped off IMO from Apple's accessories). But I can assure you that they never entered our minds when we were working on DesktopX. The point of these programs isn't to whip out calculators per se. The point of these is to make it so that non developers can create interesting and useful things.

Apple is getting blasted because at the very same time they're knocking Microsoft about stealing their ideas they're ripping off from their own ISVs. People don't like hypocrites.

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