Camerooni

Join Date 06/2008

Say No To Region Locking.

Say no to Region Locking.
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Quick Summary

- For a service designed to promote software 'freedoms', Impulse enforcing region lockouts is introucing a concept otherwise never existing in a PC environment (other than Microsofts Vista Anywhere Update - which is not available outside the US/Canada, and parts of Europe and annoys me no end because I want to upgrade to Vista Ultimate... but.. can't!), and Steam (the big publishers prevent sale of some games in particular areas and in others increase the price for the same product). Impulse is region locking desktop software now (for example Corel Wordperfect Suite which is only available in US/Canada)..

- Region Locking exists to enforce archaic business models, create market protectionism, and prevent freedom of choice and supply in order to boost profits. Unfortunately efforts by governments to prevent such market lock in is foiled by the large publishers/studios. For example in Australia, Grey Market imports were made legal a few years back - this was intended to reduce the local price of goods such as Music CD's. Instead the local distributors/retailers increased their profits by selling the cheaper 'foreign' (and i say that loosely as all of these items are imported foreign product) product at what were previously established local prices. This is effectively what is currently happening with Impulse/Steam etc. Doors to previously unaccessible content are being opened, however instead of allowing for universal access we are instead being limited and/or charged more because they believe they can.

- Games are most affected by region locking, due to a lot of titles not getting official PAL releases they become inaccessible to the European/Oceanic market (and if they are availabe they're usually 2 to 3 times the eqivalent USD price). For this reason Modchips are legal in Australia despite all the fear campaigns and propaganda stating otherwise. However this comes at the expense of any manufacturer warranty (and face it if you own a 360 you probably need that.. </cheap dig>). Modchips also introduce the possibility of quick and easy software piracy on the consoles which is a bad thing. Sony tried to kill Modchips in Australia because obviously the PS2 modchips were incredibly popular for the use of pirating games. However they failed to do so as they also allowed people to play imported DVD's and Games that they otherwise would not have been 'allowed' to by the local industry. The solution for them was to not region lock games for the PS3 (and I commend them for that), thus no need to modchip (if possible down the track) a PS3 to play import games and hence they could sue modchip makers to their hearts content to shut down the piracy side of things. However Bluray regions are still enforced on the PS3.

- DVD's and Bluray Movies are also heavily affected. Thankfully with the advent of Bluray the number of individual 'markets' has been reduced to regions A,B, and C from dvd's original 7. We're told this is to prevent people ordering overseas DVD's of movies that haven't been shown in cinemas locally - why is that a concern. We a living in a 'global market' now - the Big Publishers/Studios always use that term when it benefits them but when it doesn't it's as if they'd never even heard of the concept.

- Granted products have different distributors/owners in different regions, but that shouldn't prevent a distributor in one region from having a customer outside of his own designated area. That's what free capitalism is meant to be about isn't it? If the other distributor can't compete because he charges more - then he should either charge less, or cease to exist?

What can be done:

- Contact your local members of parliament (or equivalent) and let your voice heard. If you have a competition and/or consumer watchdog in your country, contact them and again make your voice heard. But remember to be polite and not send a letter similar to a forum flame

- Contact Stardock and express your unease of the introduction of region locking desktop and productivity software on what has previously been a 'fairly' open access platform. If I order a CD based product from the US and install it on my system there's no issue.. the same should be free of my download based software. Also be sure to mention that Region Locking of games is an artificial measure only existing to plunder profit. I always say that if a company is happy receiving $30 USD for their product in the states, then someone in the UK who pays them $30 USD should make them just as happy, right!?

- On Steam there is a group called 'Rest of World', with the idea being that it exists to allow Steam customers join and express their dissatisfaction at the treatment of non-US customers. Why are Australians being charged $88.50 in USD for Call of Duty IV when the US price is around $39.95 AND we have a free trade agreement? That doesn't sound like a fair deal!

- Avoid products/services that discriminate either in distribution or cost based on your geographical region. That means giving up these services completely.. it's hard, I don't think I could do this myself at the moment either.

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Bebi Bulma

Join Date 04/2004

+209

From what I've read, Stardock/Impulse has nothing to do with it. It's the publishers.

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When publishers, throught their actions, continually insist on pushing their prospective customers (not consumers) to the warez scene, who can blame them (the customers) when they eventually download the game without buying it.

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Cheers for the comment Bebi.

Stardock have everything do do with it - they could not allow it. Granted the publishers might ignore Impulse for a while but it feels to me like Stardock have thrown out the baby with the bath water. While attempting to make a platform that is open and accessible to all they've also introduced the capability for preventing that to happen in order to appeal to the big publishers.

It's the big publishers that need to come around - and now thanks to Stardock - they don't need to.

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Not really sure what you mean about this being a new concept. Impulse (and Steam) provide exactly the same system as before - you can only buy the product in markets that have been specified by the developer or publisher which has the rights. We place no restrictions on where you can use it, just as you could buy a program in India and then bring it over to the USA and use it.

The typical reason for this in the PC market is that the exclusive rights to sell a program in a particular market have already been sold to another company. If the developers say "well, we can only give you the right to sell this product in X, because publisher Y has all the rights in Europe", we have to abide by that.

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Quoting GreenReaper,

comment 4

We place no restrictions on where you can use it, just as you could buy a program in India and then bring it over to the USA and use it.The typical reason for this in the PC market is that the exclusive rights to sell a program in a particular market have already been sold to another company. If the developers say "well, we can only give you the right to sell this product in X, because publisher Y has all the rights in Europe", we have to abide by that.

Okay, sounds great.. you're only allowed to sell the product in the US. I'm effectively trying to buy your product in the US. You are based in the US, and you charge me in US dollars, from your US website/service. For all intents and purposes you have just sold a product 'in the US'!? Which I am then downloading(importing) to Australia.

This raises issues that the current business model doesn't know how to deal with.. Current distribution models make sense for physical product (and even then you have to start asking whether or not region based distribution deals are inherently anti-competitive).. when it's all coming down the tubes - not so much

Of course those with the fincancial interest to prevent changes that would benefit the developers and the end consumers while minimising the role of the middle man (aka the publishers) will continue to enforce old methodologies on new process.

If I am able to order a PC game for example from RandomOnlineStore.com, and have it shipped to Australia. Why can I not also buy said PC game online? Because if the publishers had their way said RandomOnlineStore.com would not be allowed to ship internationally, thus protecting their artificial pricing.

Read any marketing book and it will tell you to charge 'What the market can stand'.. i.e milk it for all its worth, and different ways to do so, locking in distribution is one of them.

But thankyou for your comment GreenReaper, I enjoy that Impulse allows for community discussion and debate.

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

Region locking doesn't allow Microsoft to charge us yanks more for Windows. It allows them to actually sell a copy on occasion in less affluent areas of the world.

If Microsoft tries to sell a South African farmer a $300 operating system, the most they can expect is laughter. Digital media is nearly free to replicate, as opposed to the creation costs, which can be obscene. They can't sell it at 20 bucks and get very far, but if they can sell some of it at 20 bucks, that's still a profit on the individual sale. Microsoft even sells a more resource friendly version of XP and Vista outside of the post industrial nations so they can get customers out of those broke bastards using ten year old computers.

Some of the companies have really gone overboard with things, like trying to prevent the actual use of software based on region, but the concept exists to increase sales, not prices.

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I can't speak for RandomOnlineStore, but we try to keep to the spirit of the agreements that we are presented with. As far as I know (I'm not in sales), we are only allowed to sell certain products to customers based in the US or Canada. (That said, if you used a US credit card with a US address there probably wouldn't have been a problem.)

You're right that it doesn't necessarily make much sense in certain cases, but consider things like localization . . . local publishers might not be willing to do a deal at all if they thought that half their market (the half who could read English) would be taken by overseas imports before they got to market.

As for anti-competitive agreements, what matters to most companies is how much you'll pay for the rights - capitalism all the way.

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SirSmiley

Join Date 06/2005

+38

Additional there are some other obvious and not the primary reasons.

International Laws, Tax laws, etc, etc. Government's are looking for ways to enforce tax collection and mostly to get more of everyone's money.

Frankly, I think a big step for this would be some form of treaty to be arrived at but, sadly we know how long things take at both the UN and World Bank. Most likely we'll be flying around in space cars before they catch up with things.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

Camarooni ...in Oz the ACCC determined that region coding of DVDs [specifically] was an 'unlawful' restriction of trade [as far as Australian consumers were concerned - that being their sphere of 'control']...and declared it legal to sell region-free DVD players in Australia. Because they [obviously] have no control over what happens outside our shores [Australia] they are obliged to prohibit the importation of region-free Players into the country as that is against the policies of the exporting countries. The solution was/is to allow the modification of locked Players once they are here to play 'region free'.

Doing it this way complies with International legislation AS WELL AS local [Australian] legislation.

We don't however live in a vacuum....a case in point was back in the days of VHS and Pal....and the original intent to distribute a film called 'A Clockwork Orange' in Australia [in Pal VHS]. Someone suddenly remembered that the UK was also Pal...and that Kubrick [then still alive] owned total distribution rights to the movie within the UK and had prohibited its release there [as Censors had wanted to cut it for cinema release]...and if it were released in Oz there'd be a flurry of trade/orders from OZ to send copies to the UK. So, we never got to see it either [on Video]...till Kubrick turned up his toes.

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ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

Punishing a good company like Stardock (who are doing their best to improve digital distribution) by not not supporting them does you less good than anything. If Stardock as a publisher does well without restricting their games/apps and does well as a digital distributor the market is more likely to change in your favor.

Try not to shoot the good guys.

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'rant'

I have to say if what Camerooni has mentioned (that some programs on Impulse are for US-customers only) is true, that would really annoy the heck out of me.

I understand that some areas of the world have cheaper pricing and they have my full support, but I have absolutely no/zero/nill tolerance for differnces in prizing and availability whithin the industralized areas of the world (North-America, Western-Europe, Australia, Japan).

I live in Switzerland, which is known to be a so called "high-price" island. That is, we pay about 30 - 50% more for medication than our neighbouring countries, even though Roche and Novartis, two of the biggest pharma-companies of the world, are Swiss. This drives the cost of our health-care up to a point, where even the most basic health-care plan becomes unobtainable (it actually is compulsory to have basic health-care insurance) for most blue-collar workers.

There is of course a big difference in live-supporting medication and software, but it drives up my blood-pressure, whenever I want to buy software, just to find out that it is not available in Europe (and of course the distributor for Europe, if there is one, charges about twice the price than what I would pay directly), or that I have to pay more, just because I live in another country, especially for goods that are distributed digitally.

I can imagine that such business-practices also play into the hands of the "warez"-scene. If you can't get it legally in your country, or if you would have to pay much more for the same good (again; I am talking of price-differences between countries of about equal living-standards), then the incentive to get it by illegal means would certainly be increased.

At least chip-modding for DVD-Players is legal here. Otherwise I would not have been able to play my 60+ Region-code4 DVD's (which actually cost the same in both countries) from my time in Australia .

'end rant'

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Quoting Zubaz,

comment 10

Try not to shoot the good guys.

I should take this spot to say that not all this is directed at stardock Region locking in general is the issue here. I probably shouldn't have led in straight away with the Impulse example, but hell, these are the impulse community pages are they not?

I appreciate the work that Stardock does, and having tried Impulse, I've played around with the free trial of Mycolours and the Object Dock and am this close to buying the pack with Windowblinds etc in it because I like what it does. (My only thought now is that it better be the same price in USD for me, that it is in USD for the Americans otherwise I certainly won't be buying it - also.. can't buy Corel Suite.. don't advertise it to me.. rather wouldn't know it even existed on your service..)

Region locking is a major concern and it affects a lot of people in many different countries. Oh it's not a problem now because I can just buy from my local distributor who adds his middleman cost to the 'value' chain, for now.. But as things move progressively online, what justification is there that I should pay 2 to 3 times the price of something than those living in the US when our dollars are almost neck and neck. Especially if I'm buying something for all intents and purposes 'in the US' in 'US Dollars'.. Shipping costs for physical product, sure charge me more.. Handling costs, yeah go ahead if it wasn't all automated.. Not being a US citizen tax - no, I don't think so!

Let's put an example up here now.. Due to enforcement of regions on videogames (Smash Brothers Brawl specifically), and Nintendo's decision to release in the US and Japan and delay the European release for 'localisation'.. which granted is necessary - good to provide everyone the experience in their native (or nearest known) languages. Instead of holding all versions back and releasing them together Europeans have to wait it out. Europeans who are paying two to three times the US cost based on exchange rate (even after shipping costs etc - because lets face it, even the US games are being shipped from the same plants in Asia - so any shipping costs would be present in the US games as well). People could (and some did) import Brawl, at massive price savings thanks to a little device that would make the wii think it was coming from the right region. So they got the game effectively early and at a better price than those who 'follow the rules'.. but now they have a modchip in their consoles - and all these games are still coming out overseas first - but that involves delivery times etc.. oh why don't they just download the games from the net instead - afterall they're already half way there with the modchip itself. Nintendo has just opened their doorway to piracy.

Another example - Steam (or Impulse) puts Assassin's Creed up.. Ubisoft decides not to sell outside the US with their products. However people are wanting to play the game now.. instead of making $40 US, they've made an Aussie walk into a store to pick up a copy - $100 AUD.. which equates to something like $85-90 USD.. pretty standard australian retail prices.. infact NextGen console releases went up to $120 when they launched.. why.. oh the Aussie dollar was around fifty cents.. so lets double the us retail price of $59.. aussie dollar has shot dramatically up - yet still paying at least double the price.. people start to think that torrent they saw for Assassin's Creed is worth a double look now.. Even someone who buys games can't help but look at all the US news sites, finding out what's new, when it's out, and how much it is.. What? It's going to come out here later, cost twice as much, and everyone will have moved onto the next big thing by then.. stuff it - i'll just download it!

People buy their software and/or games. But if they constantly see they're getting the raw end of the stick it begins to raise questions. Why can't we buy this product? Why are they charging me more for it even though I'm paying for it in their currency? (See the Activision re-pricing of Call of Duty 4 on Steam, $88.50 USD for australians). If 30 dollars is good enough to charge Americans, why do you want 60 dollars from Australians or 75 dollars from Europeans?

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It's similar to Steve Jobs suckering into people saying he had no choice. Of course he had a choice. The fact with itunes was that thanks to Fairplay it fueled iPod sales even more. The stat he used to try and make it look like very few ipoders used itunes was taken with very basic assumptions! Bad Steve!

The internet is supposed to be the freedom of information! Region locking isn't just limited to software! It is being implanted into everything!

Anyway, as I've been told. So far the only thing we can do to get around region locking is ask someone from the US to buy it and gift the software to us.

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Yep. EU prices are a riot as well... New games average 60€ (93$).

Spore Creature Creator: 10$. Or 10€ (which is 15$). Digital Download.

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Quoting hiddenranbir,

comment 13

So far the only thing we can do to get around region locking is ask someone from the US to buy it and gift the software to us.

You know I hadn't even considered that! You my good man are a genius Though - what happens when someone trys to gift an item to someone where that item isn't available? Does Steam prevent that? Would Impulse prevent that?

It's pretty clear that my take on the subject is that it shouldn't! Now to find someone that I trust in the US to test this theory out

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In an ideal world digital distribution pricing should be universal; the problem is middlemen and skimmers gouge consumers because they can. From my perspective if nothing has physically changed hands then how can there be a price difference?

As mentioned, Steam charged a different price for Call of Duty based on region. This is a deal breaker for digital downloading if it continues.

All that said whilst Gamersgate, Steam and now Impulse offer products at the same prices regardless of region - I'll use them.

On another note I just landed in the US and lo and behold I can now purchase SR2: Reboot. Yay for me.

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ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

My point is that posting here will do little good. Stardock (and likely this community) supports what you are saying. We call that "preaching to the choir".

You, and people that feel the way you do need to post everywhere else and email the decision-makers at the publishers (researching individual's emails is an art worthy of learning) letting them know that you are unhappy and that you are making purchasing decisions based on that. Let them know where you are spending your money and why. And let them know that they could have had that money. Start a movement!

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

Start a movement!

or start a brokering business that transfers "things" from country to country securly with a safe way of exchanging currency. Dunno if it's possible but there seems to be a window for making money here somewhere.

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why do americans always get blamed? everyone be happy and move here. there are lots of houses on the market.

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why do americans always get blamed? everyone be happy and move here. there are lots of houses on the market.

You don't have Worcestor Sauce flavoured Walker's Crisps.

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You don't have proper beer or cars.

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

why do americans always get blamed?

Because other countries can't seem to make video games. Perhaps the best way to beat region locking would be for an Aussie or Brit to make a worthwhile game, then discriminate the crap out of us Americans. How sad is it that the best foreign video game I've ever played was FRENCH?!?!

And before you ask, it's XIII. Terrible graphics, but it's suposed to be that way. Brilliant concept, well executed, hilarious voice acting (c'mon, you can't beat a game with Adam West in it). Well worth a look if you like FPS games. I just wish they'd done well enough to make the sequel.

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

Plenty of Aussie games. Infinite Interactive and SSG are Aussie outfits. The only thing Australia lacks is a major publisher screwing things up. The Australians have to get boned by Ubisoft or similar.

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

Here's the problem in a nutshell, and it's something that goes way beyond what one company can do....

You have WeMakeWidgets Inc. A company that makes WidgetWaxer 3.0 (following up on the amazing success of WidgetWaxer 2.0).

WeMakeWidgets Inc. is based in Germany.

WeMakeWidgets Inc. wants to put WidgetWaxer 3.0 onto store shelves so they start looking for a publisher/distributor.

Here's where the problem comes in. See, there are virtually no distributors/publishers with global reach. Typically, you have companies that focus on their domestic or geographically close markets. So if you want your software on shelves worldwide, you have to contract with multiple distributors (publishers if you're in games). You find a company that covers North America, you find a company that covers Europe, another that covers the Asia/Pacific region. So that's three different distributors you're now trying to work with to get the widest distribution possible.

Each of these distributors will want to be the exclusive carrier in their designated market. This is to protect their investment in production and distribution. Without this they can invest tons of money in getting the product into retail, and then have the software maker switch to a cheaper service once the hard work is done.

Now, lets say after getting WidgetWaxer 3.0 into retail around the globe, WeMakeWidgets Inc. wants to get into digital distribution? Well, they've already promised their distribution rights away to these other companies, unless they reserved special rights for digital distribution in the contract. Though with games quite often the distribution rights, both electronic and retail, go to the publisher. There are a few exceptions with this such as Valve who does their own digital thing and distributes to stores through EA.

So if you want to get a game for sale digitally in the US, you have to talk to the US publisher. If you want the EU rights, you have to go to whoever has the distrib rights for that territory and secure them separately. And just because the US publisher will work with you, doesn't mean the EU one will (this is not an example of what actually happens, it's a hypothetical example). There's also the problem of what if the publisher in one territory has their own ideas on digital distribution.

By the time we come to the table to secure the rights to digitally distribute a program or game we didn't ourselves develop or publish, the territories, the restrictions, and the general contractual mess has already been established. And it's not as simple as saying "Fine then, we won't sell anything we can't get world-wide digital rights to" because then that would leave us with pretty much nothing since it's the manner in which the general system works.

Region locking is such a massive mess at the moment that is rooted in how things work in the world of physical distribution that short of the entire publishing/distribution system being reworked from the ground up (or one or two truely global publishers surfacing), it's a problem that no one company in the chain can solve. It's like saying that traffic laws are totally messed up and one driver, or a handful of drivers in one town could do it their own way and make the rest of the driving world change.

You can vote with your wallet of course, everyone always has the option to not spend their money and that's not something anyone can take away from you, but you should also know that saying "I won't buy this game in Germany because of the price difference/region locking" will probably not result in a publisher going "Oh my, we lost XYZ number of sales in Germany because of region locking." They'll probably go "Oh my, we only sold ABC units in Germany. It must mean this sort of game isn't popular in Germany, we will not sell it there anymore." Look at issues with Mass Effect's DRM situation and how EA just doesn't seem to get it. It's because they're looking at it from an abstracted business point of view, not from anything even closely connected to their customers.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

Zoomba put it all in a nutshell....

but just to add....

It's all very well 'saying no to region locking' but the fact of the matter is no-one is actually asking "Would you like to have Region Locking?"...so the 'no' is moot.....

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