Is skinning a community or a market?

Philly0381

Join Date 11/2004

+844

Customizeing your desktop, your user interface, for me will stay a community. End products like games or single purpose programs are the market place. Sure you can say WindowBlinds is a single purpose program, so I guess some hair splitting will always take place.

Just my 2 cents worth.

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zakai1369

Join Date 04/2007

+139

People need to realize that the developers can't predict every possible combination of computer settings, program installations, and human errors in installing their programs that could possibly happen. And, in realizing this they need to have some bit of patience and willingness to try and get the problem fixed, rather than just jump on a forum and declare the product a piece of garbage.

As I said in the other thread to many people these days want everything handed to them without any responsibility or effort put into getting it.

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I wish I had learned of this schism before I plunked down another $34 for the upgrade. Nothing pisses me off more than (after) paying for the software I find the decent skins cost even more money. This isnt going to work longterm and gets worse because EVERYONE wants a buck in this web 2.0 world.

I purchased version 3x a few years back and it ran so horribly on my machine that I quickly removed it. I figured in the following years things would improve. They have, but lo and behold to get the good skins requires more money pretty much ruined the experience.

Its just like when you download "FREE" software then upon installation find that it's a 30 day trial. Lawyer-speak...

Mitch

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SirSmiley

Join Date 06/2005

+38

The trend these days appears to be the opposite or at least companies are trying to foster a community around existing or potential products/services. Wincustomize(the community) and Stardock (major player in the market) have grown together which in many ways is both fortunate and unfortunate.

Fortunate because of the ability to respond faster to the demands of and perhaps a better understanding of the market.

Unfortunate because sometimes those demands are not very realistic, unattainable or simply not feasible to implement.

The Master Skinning program is (IMO) an excellent example of merging the community and market. Personally, it has been one of the main reasons that I continue to be a part of this community. Sometimes I wonder if a content subscription type service for master skinners' works would be possible but, I'm sure the costs of managing this would far outweigh any benefit.

Sad to hear the DesktopX comment because I still believe it is the most versatile widget platform in the marketplace. The time it takes to script a new type of widget that is decent can be demanding.

Often I find myself creating objects/widgets based on ideas from the internet, none of these are polished enough to submit but, I've decided to start creating/releasing some basic example objects for people to see how easy it can be. Also, had an idea for a widget a week series (wonder where that idea came from

.

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warreni

Join Date 12/2005

+86

Mitch said:

I purchased version 3x a few years back and it ran so horribly on my machine that I quickly removed it. I figured in the following years things would improve. They have, but lo and behold to get the good skins requires more money pretty much ruined the experience.

I don't really think that this is a fair assessment of the state of things here at Wincustomize. Yes, it's true that the Master program exists and encourages skinners with a recognized superior level of ability (gained through exercising a certain degree of talent as well as putting in many hours of work) to sell their skins at modest prices. However, most, if not all, Master Skinners regularly contribute plenty of high-quality, free skins. In addition, there's a lot of content here in the galleries that represents excellent work done by people who have not yet achieved Master rank that is also freely available to all.

Mitch, take a gander through the galleries here before you leap to conclusions and criticize the site and the team unfairly. It's true that Frogboy's post indicates that he is contemplating moving the company in a more top-down, professionally-driven direction, but that doesn't make your OD purchase a bad investment.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

I wish I had learned of this schism before I plunked down another $34 for the upgrade. Nothing pisses me off more than (after) paying for the software I find the decent skins cost even more money. This isnt going to work longterm and gets worse because EVERYONE wants a buck in this web 2.0 world.

Including you.

That's the thing, you pay $34 for updates and new versions of new programs. The only reason it's only $34 is because historically the community was making the content and being very involved in the development of the programs in question.

Now, users pay $34 and do nothing in return. Look around and see what can you buy for $34? I paid that just for one program that lets me put my legally purchased DVDs onto my iPod Touch.

Yet you're implying other people are somehow greedy because $34 only gets you a bunch of programs and lots of free content but not all the content is free.

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Read both articles and you are making perfect sense to me...I agree almost completely with your appraisal of the current situation.
But(theres always a butt and I am he)...

Stardocks software has always been a good bang for the buck,but that also means you sell in quantity.There should be plenty of funds for proper developement.

I started with version WB4 in 2003 I think,and since then I have spent(with NT's help)about 150$ for Object Desktop since.I have always kept up hope that eventually the software would mature to a near flawless state.At 150$ money spent,I really want it to work better than it does.

Unfortunately,despite numerous bug post,I still see issues that have never been resolved.Some are getting really old and you just end up skinning around them or flat out ignoring them.So please dont blame us for not providing enough feedback...it dosnt get acted upon.

The number of advances over 4 or 5 years begins to seem paltry compared to the things you want/need or are still poorly implemented

I get frustrated when someone says they cant find a good skin(or the only good ones cost money)and someone says'there are over 4000 skins to choose from'.Because the truth is anything over a year old ends up broken and unusable from the code additions.

My OD subscription runs out in a few days(thank you NT)but at this time,I cant justify renewing it.I'll plod along with what I have til it dosnt suffice anymore.Heres hoping that WB7 is going to be the lucky number.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Read both articles and you are making perfect sense to me...I agree almost completely with your appraisal of the current situation.
But(theres always a butt and I am he)...

Stardocks software has always been a good bang for the buck,but that also means you sell in quantity.There should be plenty of funds for proper developement.

I started with version WB4 in 2003 I think,and since then I have spent(with NT's help)about 150$ for Object Desktop since.I have always kept up hope that eventually the software would mature to a near flawless state.At 150$ money spent,I really want it to work better than it does.

Unfortunately,despite numerous bug post,I still see issues that have never been resolved.Some are getting really old and you just end up skinning around them or flat out ignoring them.So please dont blame us for not providing enough feedback...it dosnt get acted upon.

The number of advances over 4 or 5 years begins to seem paltry compared to the things you want/need or are still poorly implemented

I get frustrated when someone says they cant find a good skin(or the only good ones cost money)and someone says'there are over 4000 skins to choose from'.Because the truth is anything over a year old ends up broken and unusable from the code additions.

My OD subscription runs out in a few days(thank you NT)but at this time,I cant justify renewing it.I'll plod along with what I have til it dosnt suffice anymore.Heres hoping that WB7 is going to be the lucky number.

Maybe this is a sign that Stardock should simply abandon the consumer market entirely. It's simply not worth the effort anymore.

The basic problem is that people have unreasonable expectations for $20 programs. You say you've spent $150 in the past 5 years. Okay, that almost pays for an upgrade to Windows Vista which generates BILLIONS in revenue. Is Windows Vista perfect?

I see two likely scenarios:

Either:

a) Stardock simply moves out of the consumer software market and moves exclusively to things like MyColors and other complete solutions.

or

Stardock puts together some program where the people who are actively helping us to make the software better and providing content get the software for free or at a significant discount while raising prices for everyone else.

And IR, if you really think that people providing a lot of useful feedback, then I suggest you take a look around at what people post these days more clearly.

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And IR, if you really think that people providing a lot of useful feedback, then I suggest you take a look around at what people post these days more clearly.

Sorry Brad,I meant the feedback from people who are knowledgeable and concise...it still gets ignored...I agree,MOST feedback is vague and incoherent...from users who may have no clue how to manage a pc.

For the first time buyer,WB is a great deal...for a longtime supporter it sometimes seems lacking in completeness.

I'm not giving up,I still love OD despite my(and it's) occasional crankiness.Lots of software seems to become really good about version 7 so I'm still a fan.

I see all your points as valid...if the software needs to become more expensive to truly rise above...I'm all for it.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

What you're referring to are issues that apply to a very small % of users. Some skinning issue or some in-depth usability issue.

The reason we don't have time to address those is that we are too busy trying to solve consumer issues who write posts like "CursorFX don't work on Vista!!111!!" (which of course it does) where the user provides no info whatsoever.

The natural response is to eventually conclude that it's not worth our time to focus on these programs anymore. Instead, it would make more sense to focus on just a few, very profitable programs.

Let freeware developers make cursor changing programs or object bar like programs and what not. I for one can't wait for Jesh to whip out his half-baked SuperDesk program or whatever it's called so that he can experience some of the joys we get to on a daily basis.

These days, we feel pretty taken for granted. On the games side, our customers love us. They appreciate what we're doing and they pay a lot more for the products. On the desktop enhancement side, it's almost always a litanny of entitlement-addled postings we get from people.

Makes me miss the days of Style XP which could syphon some of those people off.

But the real message here is: If people are going to treat Stardock like it's just a purely for-profit corporation rather than a community driven company of like minded users, then we can do that. We can eliminate all the marginally profitable programs in a swoop, raise our prices, hire a few more QA and support people and call it a day.

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We can eliminate all the marginally profitable programs in a swoop, raise our prices, hire a few more QA and support people and call it a day.

A not entirely unattractive idea.

And thank you for the Masterskin program...it bought me my new monitor and graphics card.yay!

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Actually I was thinking this site was related to Stardock. My apologies.

Yes there are some nice skins but unfortunately it seems that each has a weakness (my opinion anyway) that makes me go elsewhere in what seems a never-ending journey. After trying most of the free skins I can only guess that the Master Skins are of better quality with fewer issues.

Yes I could learn skinning but the idea for me was get something I like included with WB not spend my valuable time learning new apps.

Frgoboy, that is a very weak argument. Who are you to determine what is a value for me or anyone else? Justification is a tightrope I'd rather not walk

I like WB/OD and use one skin called Novum which is nice even though it's not exactly what Id like I live with it. Perhaps a trial system of some sort so I could "SEE" if I like a skin before paying for it. No telling how much I could spend and still be unhappy with the content. If you gave "refunds" on Master skins then that becomes acceptable but to guess based on a small screenie is not.

My point is that I dislike paying extra for what I consider should be included content regardless of amount of money. I feel my new car should come with tires and wheels. If they are not included I go elsewhere. I purchased OD and expected my choice of skins and not have to buy them.

Community content isnt the be all end all. In fact it's ruined online Simracing

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

My point is that I dislike paying extra for what I consider should be included content regardless of amount of money. I feel my new car should come with tires and wheels. If they are not included I go elsewhere. I purchased OD and expected my choice of skins and not have to buy them.

The problem here is that at a $20 pricepoint, providing the content free-of-charge with the product is not cost-effective. When you look at skins like Quest, Pirate, Liquidox etc, you're looking at work that took artists weeks to create, assemble and test. All of that costs money... a lot of money. Trust me, I've seen the cost sheets for some of these things.

So you have the cost of development, testing, marketing etc when a new build of WindowBlinds comes out. That's expensive right there, and at $20, we're not left much wiggle room for extras. Now we have people expecting those expensive skins too, at the same $20 price. That can't happen without the price increasing on the package.

Who are we to determine value? Well, we can't determine how valuable something is to you personally, but we're in an excellent position to determine the absolute dollar value of any piece of software or skin we produce. We know the costs and the work that goes into them. We know what it will cost to break even, and we know what it will cost to turn the profit needed to invest in future versions.

I guess what's at issue is the percieved value of software and content. For those who themselves do not create the content, there is a certain lack of understanding of what is involved in making a professional quality skin. When you don't know how something goes together, and if there's no physical product in your hands at the end, it's too easy to just assume that it's cheap or of little real value.

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Mitch, just in case you have not seen this option, when you click on the "small screenie" it opens in a new window as a full-screen sized image. This is a much better way to determine if this is a skin you would like to see on your machine every day.

As far as the Master Skins go, many of them are made by experienced community members who are not Stardock employees, and it would be unfair to tell the artists that somebody changed their mind and wanted a refund. Not to mention that the skins are reasonably priced - most of them in the five dollar range. There are things that we buy and use much less that cost much more than this. It's a matter of determining how worth it you think the purchase is. Object Desktop users do receive some skins made by Stardock Design as a perk to having purchased the software. This does not, however, entitle users to receive every skin created by every user on this site for free.

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andrew_

Join Date 03/2005

+53

We give a lot away for free. We're no Microsoft. We're no google. We don't have a billion dollar budget that we can use and spend an enormous amount on freebies.

If they are not included I go elsewhere.

Exactly. If you're not happy with what we can provide you, exercise your right of free will and choice. Mitch, you seem like an educated guy. (to go along with your analogy) I'm sure you invest time in learning about a car before you sign the paperwork and put your first payment down. I'm somewhat of a cheap s.o.b. I make damn sure I want to fork over hard earned dough before I do. I make sure I know exactly what I'm purchasing. With the *vast* amounts of information, reviews, previews and articles written on the software we produce, your argument that you were 'suprised' by the fact that there were skins that cost additional cash doesnt really hold much water.

It's this attitude that 'I deserve something, for nothing, because I think so' that is so very wrong with netizens today.

(And yes, I write software on the side and allow people to download and use it free of cost (shellscape.org (plug!)) so I know this user attitude very, very well.)

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2of3

Join Date 10/2006

+816

The odd $5 skin amongst thousands of free skins is nothing to complain about!

Hell, you pay more than that to go see a movie once!

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Ok... I have a question...

If Stardock wiped out all the not so big money makers and solely focused on big profits... (If I am reading it correctly, thats what was said in a nutshell???) Then where does that leave people like myself who sadly just discovered it and would like to learn how to create and contribute on as many levels as possible???

Even further... If all aspects and notions of a community are done away with in favor of the naturally larger market base... Then wouldnt that limit or otherwise hinder the development process???

Allow to elaborate on the basis of that last part...

I was glancing over a few things today including this post as well as another similar one (I forget the particulars) along with the details of ODN '08 and this is what it sounds like...

1. Pay for software (and rightly so)
2. Pay for ALL the themes and such to use with the software (Some premiums-fine... All??? More on this further down)
3. Pay for services (Depends)
4. Pay for annual renewal/updates (Ok, I can deal with this provided its not just paying for the exact same software over and over again)

Now that is just what it sounded like to me so if this isnt correct the please, PLEASE shed more light on it for me and anyone else who may have been confused.

Like I said before, I just discovered Stardock and all it brings and was preparing to lay out my first payments for the Object Desktop CD, the wincustomize subscription, and several other desktop enhancement software offerings when I noticed I was looking at a 2007 release, so.... I typed in "object desktop 2008" into the stardock search field which eventually led me here through seeking further information on what I was reading.

That all said... Getting back to #2 from above... From what I can best see... through sites like wincustomize... many people come together and share their creations and info on it all free of charge. Which leads to further creation, inspiration, and even more interest, development, and improvement.

For example, a guy like me whos genuinely interested in learning to create my own content to share and more than willing to do whatever it takes to help out wherever possible toward the advancement of the software required to display all these magnificent creations... possibly one day further along doing a bit of app coding myself.... Well coming here is a great place to start with plenty of room to fit in.

However, if everything were to go to the lockdown of close nit corporate level charge for everything ect... Then wouldnt that slam the door shut to people such as myself???

Or am I completely misunderstanding this whole thing???

At any rate... I for one (and Im sure Im not alone here) would gladly volunteer to help out with programs and such in any way possible in the spirit of making things best as they can be for all users both community and market based. Not for nothing, but that said, a set of folks volunteering to help out on a project because they love it should go a bit of ways towards keeping costs down. Just look around the open source community which has no shortage of programs and aps running purely on volunteer work alone.

Sorry this is so long... Just trying to get everything in so to speak.

Thanks for your time, consideration, patience, and help.

TS aka SkindowsXP.

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HG_Eliminator

Join Date 07/2002

+354

Community content isnt the be all end all.

Community Content is what started and built desktop customization to what it is today. When I signed on with lonerunner as a beta tester for Litestep or (simplestep as it was called way back then) all the content and program was community built and run. We the community provided not only the fixes but the code, beta testing and skins.

For desktop customization to remain relatively inexpensive, the community needs more folks to actively take part in Beta testing and supporting the community,whether it be buying/making skins or subscribing to sites etc.

Skinning has hit mainstream and with it brought a new user to the community, "The non active user" who's only interest in desktop customization for the most part is pressing a button and making it go. While a valuable part of the community, (they will willingly provide $$ for the hard work of others), the majority really don't want to take part in the community as a whole.

With average user out numbering the Community supporter by what 500 to 1? (this number is probably much much higher), The burden on SD and the Community supporter has hit an all time high..

Look at it this way

Community supported program's: Stardock,Litestep,Avedesk,Linux,etc. (inexpensive to free)

Company solely supported program's: XP,Vista,Adobe paint shop pro, Correll draw,Nero8,etc. (price run's in to the hundreds).

The choice is up to the Community at large, Supporter as well as the average user base.

Folks need to get involved.

**edit*

Let me add that SD is not just a Basic skinning company, they offer the Development tools to go with the programs. Most programs that offer the ability to develop your own content typically start in the hundreds. Object Desktop suite is currently $50?, and a full slew of customization programs come with it.

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In my humble opinion, Object Desktop IS a bang for the buck, and so is object Dock Plus, CursorFx and My Colors for that matter. I for one hope that Stardock does not pull out of the consumer market. The basic premise of Mitch's analogy "I feel my new car should come with tires and wheels" is flawed. Object Desktop DOES come with tires and wheels aka as FREE skins in the package, along with several programs included, not just one. Stardock also gives away master skins from time to time for current subscribers (i.e. Quest and Turbo). When you buy a car, but want to upgrade the standard features or package of that car, you pay MORE. Of course Stardock could include master skins in their package AND charge more, as most reasonable people would understand and expect. There are so many great skins from so many talented people on this site that anyone can add to their skin collection; even if you choose not to buy master skins. Complaining about the cost of OD and other Stardock products reeks of a greedy and selfish attitude. The FREE and superb support that I have always received from Stardock, via telephone or email, coupled with the WC community, is worth much more to me than a few free master skins,especially when so many great skins already exist for FREE. Testing programs of all types has been a hobby of mine for years (freeware, shareware, and purchase).I have an allstar list, and Stardock products definitely make that list. Keep up the great work Stardock and WC.

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WOM

Join Date 01/2002

+253

Seems we go through this about every 6 months. Prices have been the same for the software since I've been here. I hope they remain the same. If the people that are looking for perfection, then just uncheck the block on SDC thats says show betas and you won't have to download them and then bitch about something not working. Its that simple. Then stardock will get less bitching and more accurate info on what might need fixing from the people that are trying to help.

Like I've always said, there was bitching back then but even with a lot less people, WC was more of a community than it is now. Times change I guess.

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Let's see if I can express my concerns here without being "the antagonist" ( yeah, that still burns my ass but thats another topic )..

Brad, remember the public ass kicking you gave yourself about letting the community down? Part of that was poor documentation. Do you not think that perhaps that small act in itself contributed to a very large decline in contributions?
How about a rating system and comment section that knocks the wind out of most all new contributors works? That's not at all conducive to repeat efforts of growth.
Master Skins...
I like the idea, but it just sickens me to no end to open the Windowblinds category, filter it by Vista AND WB6 ready and see in excess of 30% Master content. (which is a classic example of the perils you describe.)I think the program has been somewhat of a double edge, necessary sword in some regards. While I'm sure it's generated revenue for all concerned, I think it has turned away quite a large amount as well.

I would gladly pay an additional $10-$20 per year for an ODNT renewal. I will occasionally purchase a master skin if it really strikes my fancy. I will not however continue using the products if the percentage of free content continues to decline.

While I see your frustrations with the lack of productive feedback I also feel like I've been slapped in the head somewhat. Why don't you do more to promote the lost growth within the community. DO something with the rating system. DO something about the non-productive negativity on comments. Many of us as practically pleaded here for a Works in Progress / Workshop type area where users can get HELP as they go. This suggestion has been flat out ignored.

So, to sum it all up.. I think Stardock / Wincustomize could blossom again. That's up to you though, and if you are willing to endure the growing pains. If not, then I guess it's time to pack up the virtual paintbrushes and remember the good 'ol days.

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I would like to say right off the top that the software here is fantastic. I have been using it (a number of programs from OD) for some time and just recently renewed my subscription. I also like the fact that the developers respond on the forums and such. The support has been much much better than with most of the software that I use. The few glitches I have come across are neglible and have been very pleased with what I have.

With that being said there are some areas that create delimmas.

1) Unlike other software that I use (besides games) this is unnecessary. I somewhat struggle each time that I renew with that in mind. In this respect the customization products are unique. And even with other non essential software in Mind, media players as an example, I would easily choose listening to music or watching a movie over the appearance of my desktop. Once again though I think the products in OD are awesome and just flat out cool. At the end of the day though cool just doesn't win out over function.

2) The big reason that I continue to renew is the content and this seems to be an area of concern. Without good content, which in my opinion has dropped off over the last year (JUST MY OPINION), the software loses it's appeal. I would feel the same way about music for instance. If I could no longer find music that I liked there would be no need for that new stero system. I know someone will say if you don't like it create a skin yourself but that would mean I would end up submitting one more poor skin to the site and besides this argument is somewhat like saying if you don't like the car you are driving create your own. Some people may have the ability but I do not.

3) Finally is the community itself. I have noticed that a lot of responses to forum posts are either dripping with sarcasm or are just rude. This is not isolated to this community though, it is rampant in the gaming community and others as well. Example: I started playing games on a Commodore 64 then moved from there into PC gaming. There was a time when the gaming community was for lack of a better term nurturing along with honest. Players respected one another. But things change and so has that community, for the worse. I have all but quit playing games online as a result. The fact of the matter is I can get insulted at home (don't tell my wife I said that hahahaha) I don't want to log in and get flamed for something I don't really need in the first place.

I have no doubt that the developers and skiinners have put a tremendous amount of blood, sweat and tears into this incredible effort and they all deserve respect. As for the cost of admission, that I think depends entirely on how much each person is willing to pay for make up.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

Ah....good old car analogies...

You buy a car and you expect to get wheels and tyres....and that you do.

Do you get those wizz-bang Centerline mags and 35 profile Pirellis with it or do you need to pay more for those?

Well....that's alittle bit like the Master Skins....

Except....

With the likes of Windowblinds [and dragging the analogy to it's painful conclusion] you get your wheels and tyres with the car...but you ALSO can choose to change them [and keep them] for thousands of others FREELY. Only a few other 'options' require a fee.

That's a darn sight better than any car I've ever heard of....so the analogy is bunk....

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Fuzzy Logic

Join Date 05/2002

+493

Why not take the Object Desktop split a stage further. Have OD and OD Ultimate, but restrict them to full releases of software only. Then add an additional OD Ultimate Plus (at a higher price point) which features beta releases. That way beta releses only get to the people who will appreciate them and who might be more willing to offer feedback.

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Fuzzy Logic

Join Date 05/2002

+493

My point is that I dislike paying extra for what I consider should be included content regardless of amount of money. I feel my new car should come with tires and wheels. If they are not included I go elsewhere. I purchased OD and expected my choice of skins and not have to buy them.

I wish you luck finding comparable software when you go elsewhere

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Is skinning a community or a market?

Frogblog: February 2008