I'm not your bro and I am going to taze you!

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

I'm not your bro and I am going to taze you!

Frogblog: January 2008

The cliche "beauty in the eye of the beholder" is so overused but is so universal. A better phrase would be that value is in the eye of the beholder.

This past week, Apple updated the iPhone and the iPod Touch. Apple is charging existing users $19.95 to get some of the new features. Thus ensued a lot of bitching and moaning about the price.

Maybe it's because I'm a sick, scummy, evil capitalist who eats babies when I'm not on here flaming web hippies but what is it with non-producers constantly asserting that other people are greedy for not working for them for free. When I bought my iPod Touch (best purchase of 2007) I knew it didn't have email or map features. The Apple is letting me have these cool and extremely useful features for 20 bucks is great. (here's my quick review of it)

So what if new users don't have to pay the $20. They had to wait longer. If the iPod Touch were a video game, it would be priced at half the price it launched at by now. You don't hear people screaming that they had to pay $50 for their favorite game a year ago and now it's available for $30 at Best Buy do you?

That's one of my biggest peeves with the Internet. We now have an entire generation of web hippies that not only expect other people to work for them to be free but have the audacity to accuse those producing stuff of greed if they refuse to behave like proper slaves.

In an age where there are fewer and fewer people making stuff (skins, software, you name it) it strikes me as extremely ironic that anyone who doesn't make stuff thinks they're in any position to be demanding others work for free for them.

I can't make an email applet for my iPod. I'm glad Apple did. And I will happily trade $20 that I earned through my labor to those who produced it. When I can't produce something for myself, I don't mind paying those who can produce a thing I want if it's of value to me. If it's not worth it, I don't purchase it.

Aero Executive

I see the same thing with skins too. Someone makes a cool skin and you inevitably have some people come out and crap on it. Last week on our tech partner site, Neowin, a user posted about Aero Executive (a new theme). Within minutes, users came on and started crapping on it. Now, a wood-textured version of Aero may not be for you but it's a good skin from a design perspective. But in the age of entitlement, the people who don't actually produce anything not only expect an unlimited right to insult those who do make stuff but become incredulous if called out for their criticism (i.e. they recognize their right to free speech but become amazingly intolerant of the right of others to defend themselves). It got so bad I had to close the thread.

So here's the deal: If you produce stuff then good for you. If you don't produce stuff, then you are either reliant on the good will of others to produce things for you or you will have to pay evil capitalists to labor on your behalf to produce the product, good, or service you want. And while you are free to criticize what others produce, so too are other people free to criticize you in return since, after all, criticism is a form of product too.

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c242

Join Date 03/2001

+382

While most of it is true I noticed an increase of people even giving shit to valid criticism towards some of Stardocks direction. That's mostly why I refrain from writing here more and more. As someone who has seen SD grow and doing great things to the community and almost always giving support whenthings got worse in other forums and sites namely deviantart and Neowin I feel I have only the right of praisng, but not to criticism. I am really sad about that so I see myself more and more just visiting the site an looking for great skins to download and/or purchase than anything else. So, dumb customer would describe me more than anything.

There were times when You could be part of it, but nowadays most criticism or valid points of trying to improve something remain unheard / are ignored or even are given shit (not to mention demotion even), if You don't submit like 2 skins an week. SD has to realize that not only skinners know how to use the programs but there are power users also. As said, I am very sad about that.

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kenwas

Join Date 04/2003

+124

As someone who has seen SD grow and doing great things to the community and almost always giving support whenthings got worse in other forums and sites namely deviantart and Neowin I feel I have only the right of praisng, but not to criticism.

It is easy to feel that way at times. However, there have recently been some bright spots such as the "debate" on what makes a community skin which leads me to believe that it is really a matter of how things are approached that differentiates a good thread from a trash talking and bitter one. As soon as any thread turns to personal attacks, it is over as far as any benefit is concerned. Even so, it does seem at times that one must bend over backwards to make the point that you are offering constructive crit. Can't say this applies in this case though, that thread referenced was a fine example of how not to approach things.

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Well said, Frogboy. I am a very satisfied user of Stardock products; have been for years. I have neither the patience nor skill to make these products. I most certainly appreciate those that do. Kind of like I appreciate the Red Sox and how they play, but I have no business stepping onto their field and making a fool of myself. You guys are the skinning big leagues and I am a fan. I buy my ticket and cheer. Over the years I have read the comments on WB and have been impressed by the positive criticism and the tips shared by the "old pros", and it has convinced me that I belong on the fan side. Everyone who puts out a first skin seems to comment on how much time they put into it, and there are still little glitches that they continue to try to work out. So to all those who make skins, THANK YOU, and to those who don't like them, don't use them. As for your newest Aero, I too, have not been a big fan of woodgrain skins, but this one is special. It glows like the burnished wood in a Rolls Royce, while others from the past seem to look like plastic woodgrain from an old Ford Galaxy. It's beautiful and it's a keeper. I like it a lot.

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I agree with that definition, but would you say that the availablility of quality skins free of charge is implied or not? And really who gives a crap about the legality of it anyway. It is not about what you can get away with, it should be about making sure all parties are happy with the arrangement. What it should come down to is...

Is Stardock intrested in keeping it's customers happy or not, even if doing so entails a little extra work outside of the "contract" with the customer, even if that work has additional costs that Stardock will have to cover?

What you describe is simply another term for "good will".

Is Stardock interested in generating good will from its customers? The answer, clearly, is yes. But the question is what is the value of that good will?

Since Stardock has started producing free skins under its own brand (Aero Executive, Elegance, etc.) it believes that good will has value.

Similarly, when Apple released their update, they made a judgment on the value of what they were producing versus the value of the good will generated by releasing it for free. They gave their updates free of charge to iPhone users but charged iPod Touch users. Why the difference?

Only Apple can say but they definitively decided that the good will they would generate by giving the update away to iPod touch users was not as valuable as the increased revenue from selling it for $19.95 to their users.

I am truly curious though if you think the direction of the product should be like that of ringtones, or if you think having a constant influx of free content available to customers is a priority.

I have to wonder: Do you actually keep up with what is going on around here? You seem to be going off on an unrelated tangent.

First, it's not an either/or question. Stardock has invested a great deal of time and money into SkinStudio 6 so that free, high quality, content can be made by other producers. In addition, Stardock has been releasing free skins.

For the 7+ years of WindowBlinds's existence, Stardock left content creation to the community. Now, Stardock has been able to use some of the capital generated from increased WindowBlinds sales to pay for the creation of high quality skins (like Aero Executive and Elegance and other free Stardock Design creations). The trend is obviously one of Stardock getting into the free content creation busienss. Not the other way around.

However, at the same time, we have seen the sense of entitlement grow over the years. WinCustomize is almost like an oasis in that consumer entitlement hasn't taken over. One sure way to combat that is the creation of Master skins which would be analogous to your "ring tone" concept.

People produce things for others for one of two things: Good will or money. For years, the producers had only one option available to them: Good will. This has been an Internet-wide phenomenon (whether we're talking game mods, most software creation, or skins, themes, etc.). But now, the producers have the option of selling their creations. IF the good will their labor generates isn't sufficient, they have an alterative. This, in turn, creates an incentive for consumers to be more supportive and appreciative and be less prone to taking on a sense of unlimited entitlement.

Obviously my preference is the quality free content model, but I think knowing exactly where Stardock stands on free content for the community goes a long ways towards hedging peoples expectations and in turn can result in less hurt feelings and flames(once again just my opinion). Really it would be alot simpler if Windowblinds shipped with a pack of skins, and other skin packs were just sold with no community... Not better necessarily just simpler. Due to the availablity of all of the free skins, I do think people get the impression they are part of the "package" so to speak, at least that was my impression when I first bought OD. I don't think pointing fingers at the customers helps anything, if customers are upset and flaming the boards, how did they get that way? Why are they upset? If people feel they are entitled to something that Stardock has no intention of giving them, why do they feel entitled and how did this miscommunication occur? Stardock owns the product and controls these boards, responsibility starts and stops with Stardock. I am not talking about legal responsibility I am talking about professionalism. Yes these are only my opinions, but I honestly don't see how anything gets fixed by pointing fingers.

What the hell are you talking about? What does this have to do wtih our discussion? There's nothing in this discussion that remotely implies what you are saying here. Quite the opposite.

The link to our partner site Neowin showed users who are NOT users of Object Desktop or WindowBlinds crapping on Aero Executive. What that thread demonstrates is the end-point of the attitude of unlimited consumer entitlement. And it's not unique to Neowin or any other website. It's a growing phenomenon where users expect producers to make things for free. Aero Executive could have been made by anyone and it would have still gotten the same trashing there or on any number of sites that have a large user base of consumers who feel entitled to the labor of others without question.

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I will say. I have been a Stardock customer for many years.

Within that time I have gotten more than I paid for in the way of: Programs that have offered me countless hours of activities, My desktop always has an awesome new look, Became part of a great online community and made many friends.I have well received my $$ worth many times over.

We here have never seen Brad and Stardock as "the corporate" entity grabbing at our cash, We see them as our friends who build us great Programs and skins and we offer them compensation for their time and hard work.

Brad and Stardock have always gone above and beyond, to make the Skinning community feel like a family.(and not just the folks here either, their influence's are numerous and spread over many many skinning and customization sites).

When my mom passed my friends here at WC and Stardock spent many hours of their own time talking with me and chatting via the forums and irc. They were not paid nor was I pushed to purchase any programs etc, instead they offered hope, support and friendship.

This is by no means some faceless,cold,money grubbing corporate community. Funny thing is, you don't even have to be a S.D. customer to be a part of it.

Well put, HG_Eliminator.

What makes WinCustomize/Stardock unique is that it values good will much higher than other places.

In this discussion, we're atomizing the terms: Money vs. Good will. Good will is valued differently at different companies.

Would Stardock have given away the iPod Touch update instead of charging $20? No question. Object Desktop users see significant new programs added each year. Stardock's game products get major updates for free too.

Stardock values good will much higher than other companies. Good will tends to be infectious. Anyone here can visit another website and see the difference in community.

How often do we have to moderate anyone? Seriously. How often are their flame wars? Almost never. How often are there nasty, negative comments for skins submitted? Rarely. Good will encourages other people to show good will to others and creates a much better place to hang out at.

But it is something we shouldn't take for granted. In our little oasis here, we often forget that outside of it, there's a world in which unlimited consumer entitlement is becoming increasingly the norm. A world where people who work hard to produce something with the expectation of receiving some good will in return are routinely abused and insulted. I speak not just of skins and themes but of software, video content, you name it. Visit YouTube or a game mod library or elsewhere and see how entitled people seem to feel. They have reached the point where they consider themselves customers simply because they make free use of something.

We are very fortunate here to have good will that is provided by both producers and consumers. It's why WinCustomize is such a fun place.

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People have a right to criticism. But criticism, by definition, is a production which means others have the right to criticize back.

I would argue back is that what I see too often are people who think their right to criticize is a one-way street. That is someone expects the right to criticize things for an unlimited duration without those they are criticizing to defend themselves.

Look carefully in that thread on Neowin. Neowin users are the normal ones. WinCustomize users are the abnormal ones (I mean that).

Now look carefully: Users who insult and criticize believe their right to do so is unlimited. When others defend the skin, the ones doing the original insulting start saying "Hey, don't I have a right to my opinion?" or "Stop being so defensive!" or "Learn to take criticism!"

They see criticism as a one-way street. They think that THEY have the right to criticize but that they are immunse to any in return.

I support your right to provide valid criticism or something. But I also support the other fellow's right to defend themselves.

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vStyler

Join Date 11/2004

+919

I know I'll take valid criticism anytime. I'm also not opposed to someone saying it's not their style but I will not stand for sniping and trolling of my work.

Stardock\Wincustomize in my opinion is almost the perfect place to foster new skinners and provide support for seasoned ones. I do feel that valid critique should be encouraged more here but better lack of that than a nest of trolls anyday.

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ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

I know I'll take valid criticism anytime

This is a fact. I have had the privilege of ripping apart John's skins for the past year. Sometimes it comes down to "I'm the (artist/User) and that's the way I want it" and sometimes it's "WB doesn't support your stupid user request" and once in a while it's "Hmm . . that's good feedback, I'll look into it"

I've done the same for RomanDA too. The thing about these guys is that they see the value of feedback. You don't always see that with artists. The other thing is that some artists don't want criticism. You have to learn that too. And artists that don't want it should learn to say so and then ignore it when it comes. Getting pissy doesn't make the critics or criticism go away.

In the end though, I know that my criticism is just one voice and I'm OK when they say "This is my skin and I'm doing it my way because I want to." It's the same really with Brad and Stardock and Wincustomize. These are his toys and we have the opportunity to ride along. I'm cool with that even though I don't always agree with his choices. I'd rather be here than anywhere else.

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vStyler

Join Date 11/2004

+919

but better lack of that than a nest of trolls anyday.

No offense to you Bichur or any family members.

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Jeffrey, it seems to me that you are a bit confused.

SD is a buisness. They produce software. Consumers make the choice to purchase said software.

You pay for software that SD makes. Beyond recieving the software you purchased.....what does SD owe you? Nothing. As long as you recieve the product you paid for, SD has fulfilled their end of the bargain.

It's nice of SD to hire a master skinner to produce high-quality skins for people to dl -FOR FREE- but do they owe it to you? As far as I can tell, all debts were settled when you recieved the software you paid for........

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WebGizmos

Join Date 09/2003

+735

The thing about these guys is that they see the value of feedback.

That's the thing Zubaz...feedback or "constructive" criticism is one thing I'm sure anyone that has ever created anything would welcome, but to trash, badmouth, or just leave a pointless comment on someones work just because you don't like it, like saying vStylers skin is crap just because it was done in the Aero style, especially when the person leaving any of these has never even made an attempt at creating anything...that is not constructive...that's nonconstructive and pointless. Those kind of comments are the kind of thing we can do without...and that Neowin thread was just that. But unfortunately I don't think anyone will ever be able to stop people from doing it.

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