Leave and NEVER come back.

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Leave and NEVER come back.

Those who would impose their wills on us are not welcome here

WinCustomize is a PG-13 site. It is also a site where people are encouraged to discuss issues on skinning and customization in an open environment.

But over the past few yeras, I've watched WinCustomize's forums degrade from being the central point in the skinning community for discussion of skins and themes to being a monolithic forum filled with self-appointed elites who stifle contrarian thoughts and opinions through bullying and intimidation.

That ends now. When we launched WC2K7, I made clear that I would be stepping in to put an end to the rank elitism that permeates the forums from time to time.

To those who would attack, insult, or demean others for having different points of view I say leave and NEVER come back. To those who use the arguemnt "This is a family site" as a shield to impose their own brand of tyranny you are not welcome here.

This site is not designed for people who are under the age of 13. We are not catering to children. We are catering to adults but allow people who are 13 and over. We allow people to discuss and disagree issues.

An incident occurred in this thread that provides an opportunity for us to make clear that those who would try to bury discussion with threats will not longer be welcome here.

For too long, people have used the threat of removing their works to crush disent to their opinions. When someone threatens to take their creations and leave the discussion always changes from what was being discussed to trying to convince the offended to stay. Over time, this has resulted in a great loss in diversity of thought and discussion on this site.

What this community does not need are a handful of self-appointed elitists trying to force their points of view down the throats of others.

This is a COMMUNITY site. It is not a site for snobby, self important elites who get kicks out of trying to bully others and impose their wills on others.

To any skinner or user woh has a problem with this. Leave and never come back. Remove your things and GO. GO NOW and never ever return.

From here on, if I see someone trying to force their opinion or end a discussion they disagree with by threatening to remove their creations and leave, I will force the issue. I will exile them and have their works deleted from this site.

We want a community where people feel comfortable discussing any issue that relates to skinning and customization without fear of reprisal, personal attack, or intimidation.

If someone disagrees with a policy of the site, a decision of the moderators, or has a problem with a user, let it be discussed civily and openly without someone commanding others to adhere to their demands lest they take their things and go. Because that time is over now.

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As much as the loss of these two members saddens me, Brad's point is valid IMO. If members disagree in discussion, that's fine. OTH, if you take your toys and go home, then that's also fine but don't expect to be welcomed back in future.

I didn't see the wall in question but that's not really the issue Brad's addressing anyway. I'm sure he doesn't really want the Wood's to leave but that was their choice.

To make unwarrented assumptions regarding whether or not Brad (or any of the rest of us) have children is simply foolish and arrogant as far as I'm concerned. Likewise the comment made in the original thread suggesting dissenters haven't been molested and therefore don't know (implying they have no right to an opinion). Not all of us who've been molested carry a flag (or a chip for that matter).

I've gone on longer than I intended to. Simply, discuss and agree or disagree but apparently if you leave in a snit, the door stays shut behind you.

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Eloquently said Chef Garry

I remember the day when this site use to be fun.

This ain't fun no more though, but I'm not packing up because I love this community it has always been run with good taste.

It's just way too much bitching about nothing and I haven't seen this much sensitivity and bruised egos since Michael Jackson. I mean maybe a tall glass of Cranberry Juice is in order here?

People please; enough said about this crap, you are forgetting why we gather here in the first place. If Frogboy closes WC down because of this sudden and obviously unwarranted ridicule, where are you going to go? Skinartistry? Deviantart? Skinbase? No! Why? Because there is no place on this earth where everyone is going to agree with you, it doesn't exist, so get over yourselves for crying out loud!! Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn people!

The hell with you, I'm not the one that's packing my bags because I'm butt hurt. Arrogance? No arrogance personified!

So do what you have to do and please do it quietly so we that are remaining can go on with our lives. I'm through listening to these petty childish hissy fits and I'll be damned if you are going to make me feel bad for being here just because you do.

Your three options as a member of the human race are 1. get real, 2. get over it or 3. get a life!

I'm going back to having a good time and exchanging neat stuff with good people with the same interests and fun loving attitudes.

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PoSmedley

Join Date 04/2005

+788

What bugs me about it, and I think the picture kind of confirms it, is that her disc site is run through www.starchild.co.jp and the name of her latest CD is Popo-Porn. Which, to my best ability to research is either Police Porn or Porn Police. Perhaps someone who knows something of the Japanese culture or language can clear that part up?

Wikipedia goes onto to say "is a popular Japanese idol and model who typically aims for the cute, innocent schoolgirl look.".

This was just a little of the info I found on the 'model' yesterday and posted in the thread. My other concern was that I was unable to find 'that' particular wall of her and it resembled several other models I did come across. It would have been helpful if the author could have provided a 'source' for the material..or 'credit' for the site he got it from. Perhaps it is out there somewhere and I missed it, I honestly don't know.

In searching, it became clear that the innocent schoolgirl look is quite in demand with the Japanese market and even clearer that a lot of it was questionable as to the age of the models. As a parent, the SS made me uncomfortable. It was in poor taste, IMHO, and had no 'artistic' merit other than to entice and excite in a sexual manner, again IMHO. The focus wasn't even good enough to be able for me to say for sure that it was the model in question and not a minor or anyone else for that matter, once again IMHO.

I hate what happened yesterday. I hate I almost lost a friend because it all got so heated. I hate that anyone involved in that mess was banned, even if it had included the SS author.

I don't know where I am going with this. I guess I just want to say that I am pretty stunned by what happened and the final outcome and not sure if that there is a right or wrong side when you break it all down. This is one of those times where I wish we could just get a 'do-over'.

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Kind of ironic that the two who left because WC was hosting images they found too provocative still have their work posted on deviantart, which hosts much more racy images than anything you'll find here.

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This is the last I will have to say on this matter.

I made my decision known only to the admins..

I removed my work not because I didn't get my way, but because I truly, honestly believe that one should err on the side of caution where a picture of a real person looks way too much like a minor. Never did I say "do what I want or I'll pack up and go home". That's not how I operate. My reason was and is, that the fact that this looked like a child, or could be mistaken for a child, did not seem to be considered....where if it were a blind that looked way to much like something else...it is carefully gone over. Never once did I , or would I say "ban all cheesecake shots"..

I was not and am not whining, am not arrogant or full of myself. I am not on a soapbox, carrying a flag or a chip. I was concerned. I am concerned. I did what was right for me.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Very well. And as you said elsewhere, you cannot "support a site" that doesn't instantly do what you feel it should do.

Farewell.

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Wasn't referring to you, Boopish. Sorry to see you go, though.

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Heh. I find the whole 'youth in suggestive pose' situation hilarious. What's the problem? Is there some sort of subconscious fear involved? I have children of my own - I don't see how this effects them at all.

Does it make me a bad parent, or mean that I'm not doing enough to protect them if I don't have a problem with a model who looks relatively young posing suggestively? If it does I'd love to hear the reasons. See, I like to think I haven't fallen into the trap of blindly assuming that something is dangerous or wrong when I'm presented with something as loosely connected to 'paedophilia' as this is. Enlighten me, please, for the sake of my children!

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Incidentally this is what the screenshot looked like:

And these are comments by people claiming to be part of our community:

CLWoods: This is the most disgusting and perverted thing I have seen on this site. You should be ashamed of yourself. I have a grand daughter about that age. People like you make me shutter. I will hold off on "getting over" it until there are no more perverts, rapists and pedophiles in the world.

The screenshot woudln't have been allowed by me because it violates the rule of havign too much of the wallpaper shown in the screenshot. But otherwise, it would be allowed.

But the image isn't the issue. It's the intolerant behavior by self-appointed elites who feel they have a right to demand their way without any other points of view being considered.

The only reason people pull the "I'm going to pull my work" nonsense here is because it has worked in the past -- people will placate those users and the bully gets their way.

As was pointed out, CLWoods has an active account on deviantART which has content that is vastly more...controversal. Why? Because people know that dA won't censor people's stuff just because "valuable" people complain.

Don't give in to threats or bullying.

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Bebi Bulma

Join Date 04/2004

+209

Way to stick to your guns Brad, applaud from me. When the whole thing was going on I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. It's one thing to make a complaint about something, it's another to make threats to try to strong arm your way on the issue.

When there were comments about the elitism here I was either blind to it or wasn't looking for it. But I think I understand now (just hope I'm not unknowingly part of it).

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PoSmedley

Join Date 04/2005

+788

Enlighten me, please, for the sake of my children!

For me, personally, it makes me uncomfortable. As i stated in #28, I couldn't verify that the model was who the author said it was and the author didn't offer any way to do so. Then you have this....

US court legalises virtual paedophilia, 16 April, 2002

The US Supreme Court has overthrown a congressional ban on virtual paedophilia. It ruled the First Amendment protects pornography or other sexual images that only appear to depict real children engaged in sex. The judgment is a victory for both pornographers and legitimate artists such as filmmakers. They argued that a broad ban on simulated child sex could make it a crime to depict a sex scene like those in the recent movies Traffic or Lolita. The law was challenged by a trade association for pornographers.

So, I start to wonder exactly what we are seeing here. Then add in that the model's latest DVD is called POPO PORN. I have been unable to find the translation or meaning of this title. I will offer that I tried to ask the owner of a japanese Take out place tonight and she just said she didn't want to tell me, but it was bad, and she wouldn't eloborate. And given that, she MAY be wrong. I don't know.

So you have images available that are 'legal' thanks to the supreme court, and granted, this one depicted no nudity or sexual acts...and a DVD title that just seems too much when you factor in the image and the Wikipedia definition/offering on this model (#28) and I, personally, was unable to verify the pic was who it was claimed to be. I guess I am apprehensive as well as uncomfortable.

if you are curious about the proliferation of the 'schoolgirl' craze...Google 'schoolgirl'...

Schoolgirl uniform fetish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A schoolgirl uniform fetish is a sexual fetish in which someone enjoys dressing in ... The schoolgirl uniform fetish is common in both Japanese and Western ...

Anime Schoolgirl - Stardoll - Your paperdoll heaven

MTV Asia Schoolgirl Panties at Kontraband

These are the 3,4, and 5th entries you will find.

Google it under images and you will see just how popular it is and realize that there must be a great demand for it to be so much of it, and a lot of it goes beyond the SS. Turn off any filters you have or the adult block and you will really get an eyeful.

So, I feel there was some legitimate cause for concern. How would you feel knowing your neighbor or co-worker were looking at these kinds of things or that they were a 'turn on' for them? Would you want them around your kids? Would you want to promote thses kinds of images or any image that depicted young girls or mature girls portraying young girls in a less than innocent manner?

Finally, as a new father with a 5 week old daughter, I guess my views on things are changing, maturing, or whatever. But, I have to ask if I would want her posing like that and having it plastered on desktops everywhere. If I had that wall on my desktop, I would have no argument if she chose to do it, would I?

This is just my opinion. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or criticize yours, I'm just trying to explain, like you asked.

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Some time ago I read an interesting article (I have no idea where, or I'd provide a link) that contrasted the views of girls and women in Japanese culture versus Western culture.
The gist was that in Japan, the image of the young girl, particularly the schoolgirl, is idolized. Even grown women will dress themselves to look the part and, more interesting, go out of their way to act like a schoolgirl. (ie: silly, chatty, etc...)
This is considered to make a woman more attractive and desirable.
In contrast the Western culture tends to take younger girls and make them look older. Clothing, make-up, music, are all marketed to young girls to make them look and act older. (I have two boys, but friends of mine raising girls tell me it is almost impossible to find age-appropriate clothing.)
In both cases the image of youth is elevated, but where the Western culture tries to make a younger girl look and act older/sexier, the Japanese culture strives to have women of all ages look and act like young school-age girls.

From what I read in the other thread, the original poster of the SS is of Japanese origin, and doesn't find anything offensive about it.

While this has little to do with people leaving this site, it does shed some light on the different cultural viewpoints.

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Can you add a control for all the new persons that make an account on stardock to verify their age? Maybe it's easyier to hold those 13 year old children?

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This is just my opinion. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or criticize yours, I'm just trying to explain, like you asked.

I do understand, but the fact of the matter is that these pictures aren't the source of the problem. If there weren't a demand in the first place, there wouldn't be as many images as the ones you described. While I'm sure I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable if someone in close proximity to my family looked at 'schoolgirl fetish' pictures, it's no reason to project my own fear on to them. Personally, I think it's unfair to judge someone negatively if I don't understand the reasons behind their actions, and there could be many psychological reasons, considering most of our sexual development happens throughout our youth / school years. At any rate, I don't think that someone looking at pictures such as these is reason enough to think that they're a danger to my children, and I can't see any logical reason why I should.. especially when the 'problem' is as widespread as it is.

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PoSmedley

Join Date 04/2005

+788

Personally, I think it's unfair to judge someone negatively

Yes, I guess I am projecting my fears. I feel these pictures can be a source to the overall problem mentioned, outside of the screenshot issue. If I put it on my desktop I am telling my family and daughter that it is okay. If she decides to pose like that for boys, the web, I have lost any argument I would have with her. I would be telling my son it is okay to view girls in such a way. All of this, without still knowing for sure that this girl is who she is supposed to be or of age.

I argue with my wife that she is over protective. Then I see the weekly Dateline installments and how my niece talks on messenger and wants to post pics on MYSpace. I think my fears are real and valid.

As for what is a danger to my children or who is...I check the recall sites everyday to see if I haven't bought something that is going to grab my baby's throat and choke her. And I don't want to be the one on the six o'clock news saying 'He's lived next door to us for 5 years and always seemed so harmless and nice'.

Maybe we are at 2 different ends of the spectrum and I will allow I may be over protective or whatever...but I haven't seen a lot of things happening in the world lately to tell me that I am wrong to be afraid for my child or anyone elses. Sometimes all we have is vigilance and gut instinct.

Without judging the author in any way, my only question concerned the SS and what it may potentially be saying about what is appropriate and what is being said on a whole. I originally tols the author that I liked his SS set-up but that he could have chosen a less 'controversial' pose of this actress/model.

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At any rate, I don't think that someone looking at pictures such as these is reason enough to think that they're a danger to my children, and I can't see any logical reason why I should.. especially when the 'problem' is as widespread as it is.

You should consider it. I recieved a call this afternoon just after my post. I just found out that one of my 11 yr old nieces had been abducted and raped. the man was caught. his harddrive was filled with images such as this one.
now ask me again how I feel.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Pumakitten: I'm sorry about your niece but that reasoning is totally illogical. MOST people have images such as what's above on their hard drives. It's a girl. In a swimsuit. An adult girl. You also have the image on your computer -- it's in your cache.

But here's the point: In an OPEN community such as ours, we have the right to disagree. Do I make myself clear: You have the right to an opinion and someone else has the right to disagree with your opinion.

Your rights end where someone else's begins. You do not have the right to go on and start insulting other people.

And most of us, nobody has the right to try to bully others into accepting their opinion. I have seen people threaten to leave and pull their work not because they really want to leave but because they know that this site is full of reasonable, kind people who don't want talented people to go.

The proof is self-evident, the people who make these kinds of "I'm going to pull my stuff and go" threats almost always have deviantART accounts where there's a ton of content like that picture as well as images that are far more provacative.

And all I'm saying is that if I see someone make a threat to pull their work and leave if they don't get their way, I'm going to make it happen for them. I'll wipe their stuf fand exile them and they will never be allowed to return.

Just to restate it: A person's rights end where another person's rights begin.

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SirSmiley

Join Date 06/2005

+38

There are many violent wallpapers that offend me but, I choose not to view them. I choose not to elaborate on specifics because what traumas and abuses I have experienced are deeply personal plus in the past.

his harddrive was filled with images such as this one

That's a kind of broad assumption, and I don't even want to think of what may or may not of been on that computer or I'll gag on my own vomit. And before meandering into an obscure discussion on child porn, I think we need to stay on the real issue.

Censorship based on one cultures'/group of people's perspective is still censorship. That's the reason I phrased it the way I did in the original post. We all form are views based on our past experiences and beliefs but, implying that my view is the right view would simply be ridiculous not to mention naive.

A person's rights end where another person's rights begin.

That sums it up a heck of a lot better than I'm trying to put it.

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Join Date 03/2001

+23

I agree with Frogboy.

Simply put, internet is composed of many different kinds of people. You can't just go and impose your view on the community. What's so funny about this whole thing is this... anyone can just up and leave for good. It's not like you are forced at gunpoint to view this site.

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That's it in a nut shell

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Thank you, Frogboy. Everyone is entiteled to each other's opinion, as long as it is not forced upon them. Television has a gadget called "The REMOTE"! We on the internet have a gadget called "The MOUSE"! If you do bot like what you see...CLICK away.
My subscription here ends in 2010. I will sign up again before that. I have been a member since 1999 and will probably remain here til my death or the demise of the internet. LOL. Whichever comes first. I love it here. Thanks again.

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Honestly I was blown away to see the "offendee's" described as elitest's and bullies. Im not going to agree with you because you are or are not the owner of the site. I know that even if we have differing arguements that you also respect my opinion so i will never hold my tongue in lieu of being liked or disliked by anyone.

I personally would never have pulled my work but it seems to me these folks were just middle aged decent folks trying to stand up for what they deemed a standard of decency.

Their work may still reside at DA, which is slowly falling into the crapper as far as what is allowed there, but at DA.. you have no voice, its just too big.. people get swallowed there.

Perhaps they thought better of WC, that this was their "home"..as I do and that this site and its moderators held themselves to a higher standard and that maybe their standing in the community actually meant something.

All in all I guess I understand both sides, I do however think the response was severe and perhaps paves the way for the bikini bunch and muddy's the water's for the people that stand by their decency expectations.

I will continue to be an active member of WC, I am saddened by the whole incident and I hope the next time it will be circumvented by moderation and dealt with more professionally... on BOTH sides.

Lastly , saying "just dont look" is a lame retort. People patronize certain communities so they dont have to duck and dodge what they see and dont see.

As far as I can see WC has fairly high standards I just hope it stays that way for the sake of all that is good and just.

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Join Date 03/2001

+23

vStyler, the point of people here have been saying, including myself, is that owners decide what stuff the site they own accept, or not accept. It's like telling the owner of car to change cars from a Volkswagen model to Ford model, because they doesn't like German-made stuff since they killed Jews.

If I was that Volkswagen car owner, I would tell them to fuck off it's my car and my life.

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I know what your point is... and ive stated mine.

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OK, I re-joined here after a LONG, and I mean LONG time... I miss this group...I miss WOM, Frogboy, KG...and so many others...my heart hurts.

When I pretended to be "fill-in-the-blank" I often took up the guantlet of being at Brad's defense...NOT because I was some 'toadie' but because I truly respected him and appreciated him for all the shit he puts up with and somehow keeps a thick enough skin to not totally go ballistic. I dunno 'bout you but he's a 'hero' in my eyes because he keeps his cool more than I can.

I've fekked up plenty...I brought stupid shite to the boards when I should have just privately mailed the big guy... In the end, you have to ask yourself, "do you just want drama?"

Thank goodness Brad and so many other mods were sooooooo dang liberal with me...I must have been one of the most annoying people on this board!

And ANYONE, ANYONE who DARES to think Brad is an ogre? HA! Think again! He has written me back from a personal mail...something I never even thought he had
time to do...but he has heart which often gets him him trouble I s'pose.

Having a heart gets you no place in the corporate world...and being personable in the world you created yourself is fraught with follies.

Do I think Brad was 'rash' in his decision to downgrade the folks whom were naysayers? Hell no! If NOBODY runs the ship...how safe would YOU really feel?

As a survivor of child abuse, I'm NO way in condoning images of young or young-ish looking girls being depicted in tawdry ways...

But...

Guess what?

That's what e-mailing the ADMINS is for!

I'm not innocent of dragging out things on this forum...boyyyyyyy was that ugly...

So, Can I BEG, PLEAD, WHIMPER? For all those whom have a leget concern over ANYTHING regarding this website, PLEASE take it privately????????

Frogboy is right...elite 'I'm so important and will effect the whole site if I leave' kind of ego trip is not called for...intelligent, adult conversations and discussions are how things REALLY get done...(especially done via private mail).

With kindness in my heart,

Me

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