Now back to politics and Marxist theory? OK, if you insist
Let's address a series of statements together, shall we?

the proper terminology for the whole 14 hours of work thing is Wage Slavery

To me, health care sucks up way too much of our money, and pays out way too much to doctors, dentists, etc. for their work. They technically produce nothing

the insurance, if you are fortunate enough to have it

the only thing that was actually produced was the prescription medication, and even at that, the dollar amount charged pales in comparison to the actual price to manufacture

wages still suck on an average forty hour work week

not even beginning to touch on college for the kids

instead of using that 'worthless' college degree to make some real money he finds himself stuck in a dead end job because he is unwilling to move to India or China or whatever

Ignoring the obvious rhetorical flourishes employed in some of these statements, (and ignoring momentarily whether we agree/disagree with any of these statements as well) let's address a core (unspoken) assumption behind all of these thoughts: We are somehow "entitled" to a worry-free and happy existence, by the simple act of being born into this world.
This initial assumption must be dealt with before we can even begin to argue about assigning responsibility for providing for this entitlement.

It is a very prolific belief today: that somehow our very existence in this world entitles us to happiness, and that this happiness is the responsibility of "somebody else" to provide for us.

For argument's sake, let's just assume that this is true and we are, indeed, "entitled" to a level of happiness provided by another's labors. Who are these "others"? Are they too entitled to a degree of happiness? We will need to address who is to provide them with their level of happiness, then, correct? Evil S tacitly admits that the concept of "production" exists; and that this production is not enabled by some magical ether, I assume, right? Not to put too fine a point on it, anything "produced" has to come from "somewhere"; it cannot simply grow like topsy from nothingness. Back we come to Raw Materials and Labor. So now we must address human nature and what motivates us to "produce" anything. In a Marxist textbook somewhere people are solely motivated out of their desire to better their neighbor's lot in life, right? In this fantasy world (in fairness, from a Christian perspective, it sounds an awful lot like "Heaven"), we could construct some theoretical system that will provide a minimum collective level of "happiness" for all of the worker bees, right? Each will produce according to their ability and receive according to their needs and everyone will be "happy". We will each have to adjust our own personal convictions concerning "happiness", but this is understandable in the pursuit of Utopia on Earth, right?

Rhetoric aside (and I have been told that I have an understated talent for it -- but let's leave our wives out of this, ok?  ), do any of us truly believe that human nature is formed in this way? What DOES motivate us to produce anything? Charity? Greed? Love? A Mindless Desire to Increase the Hive's Treasury? Do individuals even matter? Is it important for a concept such as "freewill" to exist? If not, our job is made much easier, for then "we" simply designate "some other people" as production "slaves" who will serve us and make us happy.

I will intentionally leave this analysis unfinished to spur the most commentary, hopefully...  

Cheers!

During my time ass a pencilpusher,,I quickly realised that most of the people in the top are just as interchangable as the men on the floor

I'm pretty sure there's a typo-pun here that might be the most "valuable" thing in the thread so far. If PB did "time ass" on purpose, well, he/she/it deserves money from Hollywood . Regardless, it's gotta make you thhink...

We are somehow "entitled" to a worry-free and happy existence, by the simple act of being born into this world.

QO your remarks sum it up nicely. Thankfully there are those of us who do beleive you do actually have to WORK for a living to EARN a living.

I never said that life was fair or that the world owes anyone a living. After all I was brought up Lutheran and one of the prime tenants of the Bible that was drilled into my head was "he that would not work should not eat". I agree with this philosophy wholeheartedly. This is pretty much the same sentiment as FC mentioned. The only thing is I would amend it to be "he that would not work, and is able, should not eat". Again this is pretty much what FC said in he believes in a hand up and not a hand out. I believe in the same thing. Now if someone will simply explain to me how the 80 billion dollar no-bid contract to Halliburton doesn't represent a hand out then perhaps I'll change my opinion.

Mumble, my last comment was meant to be an extension of what you said, not a contradiction. Forums are clumsy tools sometimes.

Edit:

Remembering that this is an open forum, I thought the addendum appropriate. I have seen enough comments by you to know you believe in the value of work and that you get it for lack of a better phase offhand.

FC, I spouted the 80 billon figure from memory. A little googling suggests that perhaps this figure is "only" 8 billion. If you want, you can google "no bid halliburton contract" (not exact order) and get over a half million hits. Most are interesting, although admittedly from sites that appear to have a left wing agenda.   

Purge, my work ethic comment was not really directed at you. It was really to indicate that I had more agreement with FC than my other post may have indicated.   

Quixen, no need to feel intimidated, you hold up your end of the conversation quite nicely.

---

I think the reasons I usually stay out of political conversations have been well documented. It's not that I don't care, it's that they can become so inflammatory and in the end change no ones opinion. The only real benefit that can happen is if every once in awhile an opposing opinion makes you take a good look and perhaps make you adjust your own opinion, even if only slightly.

None of these issues are as black and white as each side would like to believe. There are many strong points to be made on either side. At this point I’ve stirred the pot as much as I care to. Perhaps in another 1200 posts or so I’ll feel like contributing to another political debate.

One thing I do really wonder about is whether or not I had been successful in keeping my political opinions from coloring my previous posts. I guess the answer to that question is in how many folks realized that I was a “yellow dog” democrat. I’d at least like to think that I treated differing opinions with respect.   

We are somehow "entitled" to a worry-free and happy existence, by the simple act of being born into this world. QO your remarks sum it up nicely. Thankfully there are those of us who do beleive you do actually have to WORK for a living to EARN a living.

I am not delusional about life not being fair and I know full well that you have to work for a living. But this is only because that is the way our current capitalist system runs, and probably just about every other system as well. Not to invoke laughs but honestly, if you believe in God and Jesus, then yes, we are all here to be happy and enjoy what has been given to us. We are meant to share and love and help one another, thus proving that we are able to move onto the next level in existence, be it Heaven, or something more along the line of being allowed to enter into the universal community versus our Earthly one. But this will probably never happen...

Where's the Evil? There is certainly a dichotomy between this statement and your forum persona. Maybe Good Sunshinebringer is really not all that far off.

You liked that one huh? No Mumblefratz, my online persona is probably way off when it comes to my beliefs. I am very religious in the sense that I thoroughly believe in God, and Jesus (and feel they are both different entities)even though I refuse to step foot into a church for religious services. A wedding, a christening, yes... Sunday services, definitely not, no matter what religion. I was raised Catholic and traversed through a handful of religions on the way to 'enlightenment', ahem, and found all of the presentations to be lacking. What drove me away for good was a preacher, Baptist I believe, who one Sunday began by telling everyone in attendance that God wanted us to have a new TV, and a new truck, and a big twelve point rack hanging on the den wall...
I don't walk around preaching, almost always try to do the right thing in line with 'WWJD', and you know what that means, and mind my own. I feel very bad for the people both here, and abroad, who suffer daily and wish there was something I could do of substance that would help, but I can barely help myself. I've volunteered at a few kitchens and even tried to help out at a local animal shelter, which incidentally crushed me having to see those animals put to sleep... but still never felt like I was making a difference. Now I just go through life, sometimes ignorant of what goes on around me, sometimes noticing it all. I figure as long as I love my wife, and she loves me, then that's all that matters. I now wait for what some may call the "end of the world", if it is to happen, and hope that if it does, even if I am one of the sinners, maybe I will see real justice served.

While there is nothing inherently wrong with "talking the talk", I do agree that too many do so without "walking the talk"' - a struggle that I fight every single day. Of course, with my past life as a construction worker, I have days where I find it difficult to even "talk the talk" properly, especially when driving through rush hour traffic. [/confession]

Anyone taking bets on where this thread will next head? I know you could have won some money off me on it....

How about this way...
Last night TLC had a show on called Strange UFO Tales, or something along those lines. Anyway, it was like the top ten of absurd alien conspiracy shows, starting out with the more 'acceptable' theories and then going through more and more ridiculous theories until arriving at the most absurd and outlandish one of all, which would be 'number 1' so to say.
It culminated at the top two, the first of which, or no.9 if you will, was about the Illuminati really being families of aliens who have been here since before the Great Pyramid. Through interbreeding and such they maintained control over our society throughout the ages and still control us today through the world banks and energy industry.
The number one theory however was pretty wild and was introduced by a professor at Oxford, which I must admit kind of wowed me. His theory is that the Matrix wasn't that far off from what we are living right now. Kind of like being inside an alien playstation I believe he said. His theory was based on the assumption that forty years ago, our computers were the size of a room. Today, a laptop can do what ten rooms worth could do back then. He surmises that aliens would also have super computers and that their technology would allow them to submerge us into this 'virtual reality' world that they have made for us. Reminded me of playing the Sims.
Another theory was that the aliens are able to change 'frequencies' thereby rendering them 'invisible' to us, at least in their true form. To demonstrate he used a few radios. Tuning into a station he would say "okay, listen". He would then tune into another station, noting that even though we didn't hear the first one, it was technically still there, just at another frequency.
All in all, it was an interesting watch. I'm not sure how much I buy into, but I will admit that I believe there are aliens out there, if not actually here right now.
How's that for changing course!?!

How about English-first people (Canadians, Americans, Brits, Ausies, etc) who don't know the difference between two / to / too OR their / there / they're.

I didn't do this anywhere did I? Please catch me if I did because I hate it myself.

Possible,but not plausable.

Grammar Nazis: I don't think they have a proper place on this forum, or on almost any forum. I've never seen a single person suddenly go from inability to write properly to fully educated eloquence because someone corrected them on a forum. If you go about correcting someone's grammar or spelling, you're probably just going to offend them, if anything.

The word Nazi: I don't think we should fear the word. There have been many groups of people who terrorized others in our history, and none of these names should be feared, in my opinion. Understood, remembered? Sure. Feared? Why should they be feared? It's just a name. A title. In our modern society, the word has taken on a new meaning with a different use, but one that partially reflects the idea of a Nazi - someone who condemns others. I actually think the word reflects poorly on those whom it is applied to, but some still choose to wear the title proudly - I assume due to pride in their English knowledge. However, since Nazis were a group of intolerant masochists that saught to destroy those who they deemed inferior, I don't know that being a "grammar Nazi" reflects a spirit of well-intended advice. Certainly the Nazis of Germany weren't giving "helpful advice for self-improvement" to the Jews they shuffled to their death.