Zune - an alternative to iTunes » Forum Post by Corky

This I might look into - never got around to iPod - I own 8 CDs - No satellite radio -I'm one of the people keeping regular FM alive

You got no Winky on the test pages.

Successfully updated karma reason!

ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

FM Radio in the car.
Pandora on the PC.

Happy ZubaZ

Successfully updated karma reason!

unclerob

Join Date 08/2006

+40

Apparently Zune is not incompatible with the billions of songs sold through Apple's iTunes Store, the Zune is also incompatible with the songs sold by all of Microsoft's PlaysForSure (go figure, create the "PlayForSure" initiative and then release a device incompatible with it?) partners, including MTV URGE, Napster, and Yahoo! Music. It's also incompatible with RealNetworks' Rhapsody service.

The only thing it has that the other mp3 devices don't have is Wi-Fi capability which would allow one zune user to share music, videos, pics with another zune user - the catch is that you would have to find another zune user for this functionality to work. I think the colors it was released in are white, black & brown. iPod killer - me thinks not!

I don't think Zune is going to make a big impact this year but if Microsoft holds on to it for another year, I'm sure by next christmas the zune will be something worth talking about. Much like it's operating systems & software, Microsoft likes it's consumers to pay for the privilege of beta testing, the next release after all the bugs & problems are found by the 1st round of customers may be a true competitor with the iPod.

IMHO - wait for Zune SP2 next year

Successfully updated karma reason!

You can own an iPod and not be locked into the hardware, you know. I'm not, as everything I have is DRM free and either ripped from my own CDs or downloaded from emusic.com (no DRM). I can easily switch from my iPod to a different player, should a better one be offered. But from the reviews I've read, the Zune isn't it.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

0

Microsoft likes it's consumers to pay for the privilege of beta testing

I am not following you on this one. I am running Vista RC2 (5744) and Office 2007 - legally for free. Have you paid for these for some reason (other than shipping or the bandwidth fee)?

You can own an iPod and not be locked into the hardware, you know.

Sorry, I should have been more specific and said proprietary technology requirements.

iPods need iTunes to load files, which requires PC owners to install yet another media player. I have 2300 + songs (all ripped from the original CD in WMA lossless format) which have to be in either .mp3 or .aac (.m4p) format to run in iPod. This took just over 24 hours for iTunes to convert to make them compatible with the iPod. The 'Zune' can read all three formats (.mp3, .aac, and .wma) making it more compatible with multiple media formats, and thus with more 'stock' computers.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Island Dog

Join Date 06/2003

+1048

I have never regretted buying my iPod. The Zune is ok, but it's not going to replace anything I have.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I'd be wary of buying any first gen hardware like this. I'm waiting for the 2nd gen (maybe 3rd) of the Creative players, and maybe the 2nd gen Zune.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Creative's Vision:M 30GB and 60GB model. The unsung hero of the current MP3 player generation. Brighter screen, better audio quality, and will work with either WMP OR Creative's own music organizer. plus no badly enforced DRM standards. Give it a gander.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I have a Samsung MP3 player, and I'm perfectly happy with it. Easy to use, and smaller than either the ipod or the zune...

Successfully updated karma reason!

I am not following you on this one. I am running Vista RC2 (5744) and Office 2007 - legally for free. Have you paid for these for some reason (other than shipping or the bandwidth fee)?

I suspect that unclerob's talking about the oft-mentioned (and arguably meritorious) notion that Microsoft tends to "clean up" completed projects after their release with service packs.

No Zune for me. I listen to the radio on the road; I listen to my MP3s at home; my CDs sit in some box in my closet somewhere where they won't collect dust. I haven't seen them since, like, the middle of the Pleistocene Epoch.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Corky_O, going by the page you linked to... the Zune is a much less desirable, more limited unit. It plays MP3, AAC and WMA files up to 320Kbps ONLY (therefore your lossless WMA files wouldn't work anyway) and doesn't work with ANY lossless formats at all. It doesn't support the billions of songs sold through the iTunes music store and it doesn't even play WMA files protected with MS's own Plays For Sure DRM. How lame is that? ...and the only video it supports is, apparently WMV, locking it out of all those H.264/MPEG4 videos that are floating all over the web. To top it off, the only image format it claims to recognize is jpg. Works with Windows only.

Otoh, the iPod supports MP3, AAC, AAC/m4p( Protected AAC like the iTunes store), AAC Lossless, WAV, AIFF Audible. Your lossless WMA files can be converted to Apple Lossless and still work on the iPod without any degradation in quality. The iPod, also, plays H.264, MP4 and Quicktime movies. it supports bmp, gif, jpg, png and tiff image formats. On top of all that the iPod functions as an external drive. Works with Windows and Mac and Linux (after downloading 3rd party software).

You can use other apps with the iPod and an Open Source firmware even allows it to play Ogg Vorbis, FLAC and other audio formats if the user needs it to do so.

Furthermore, though the Zune's display seems larger, it actually only displays the same number of pixels as the iPod.

John

Successfully updated karma reason!

I'll stick with my Creative Zen Vision M, it STILL has better video playback then the NEW ipod. As for the Zune it looks ugly and I don't think it will lure "Joe music" who just goes and buy an ipod because that's what everyone else has!

Successfully updated karma reason!

Corky - It also appears that Vista does not support the Zune because WMP11 is not yet compatible... go figure!

http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=104

Successfully updated karma reason!

Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

0

Corky_O, going by the page you linked to... the Zune is a much less desirable, more limited unit. It plays MP3, AAC and WMA files up to 320Kbps ONLY (therefore your lossless WMA files wouldn't work anyway) and doesn't work with ANY lossless formats at all.

Here is the audio file information page: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/928191/en-us?sd=zune

Here is the video file information page: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/928192/en-us?sd=zune

My point, which is clearly not well said, is that the 'Zune' is an alternative choice for a portable media device which includes software that can read files from both Apple and Microsoft default audio player file formats (as well as the .mp3) and then sync with the device. Therefore, one could simply copy ripped or downloaded library files of said file types onto the computer and the software will add them to the library, allowing for addition to the device.

You can use other apps with the iPod and an Open Source firmware even allows it to play Ogg Vorbis, FLAC and other audio formats if the user needs it to do so.

As a Dead Head I am fully aware of the lossless file formats (no attitude here, just a fact). Are you saying that the iTunes program reads these? Or do I need to write the firmware to my iPod? I currently have about 140 concerts (GD) that I attended in 'shorten' file format which would be great to load onto my iPod. Any information on that would be welcome.

Thanks for pointing out how much better the iPod is.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Corky_O, those 2nd two links refer to the Zune SOFTWARE, not the physical device. So it would seem the software will accept a wider range of formats but then will still convert it to the limited options as mentioned in the original link before placing it on the Zune HARDWARE. This is no different than iTunes converting WMA to AAC before loading on the iPod, except that iTunes only does the conversion once. (Do you want to sit there and wait while the Zune software converts it each time you want to add the file to the Zune player? I know I wouldn't)

By default iTunes reads AAC/ALAC (Apple Lossless) and the iPod will play those files natively. iTunes can generally read any file format supported by Quicktime. There are plenty of codecs available for Quicktime so just find one for whatever audio format you need and load it up. Googling turns up numerous hits.

However, if you want the iPod to read those other formats you'll need to resort to the open source firmware. Personally, when I have something in FLAC or whatever, I use a 3rd party tool to convert to ALAC.

EDIT : BTW, you commented previously about how iPods required you to load 'yet another media player'. This 'complaint' apparently holds true for the Zune, as well, since it needs it's own software for conversion, etc...

Successfully updated karma reason!

Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

0

This 'complaint' apparently holds true for the Zune, as well, since it needs it's own software for conversion, etc...

Actually, the 'iPod' software is required for the 'iPod'. iTunes just recently (beginning with iTunes 7) incorporated this software into the iTunes installer. So you still need both the iPod software and the iTunes media player to load onto the iPod.

The big difference I see is that the new offering from Microsoft will allow you to use (without conversion) the native file formats - .aac, .wma, and .mp3 - where the offering from Apple will not let you use '.wma'. This again leaves the fence in place between Apple and Microsoft, and could be considered a 'proprietary' issue.

In the defense of your arguement, the fact that the 'Zune' software only runs on XP w/SP2 and MC, still leaves something to be desired in the search for a 'one size fits all' solution. Thus, the "I feel like I may regret purchasing an iPod, now that my freedom has been shown to be limited - but that is a personal issue" statement in my opening. I would not even consider another device if the iPod would also allow the use of Windows Media Player and '.wma' files. Sadly, this is not the case.

The wireless capabilities of the 'Zune' may compel many to consider it as an investment for future upgradability. Microsoft has indicated that it will provide firmware updates for the devices. I am not sure that this would be the thinking when purchasing an iPod (I bought one strictly for listening to music while working out or jogging, where it replaced the obsolescent 'Walkman').

I do agree that the iPod is more versatile in many respects, but it would seem that Microsoft is trying to; (1) offer an alternative option themselves to gain a piece of the market, and (2) offer a slow 'peace' path where more direct interoperability between Apple and Microsoft is possible for the end user. As always, consumers are going to be aware that this is just as much a plan to gain profit as it is anything else, but some people may see the subtle possibilities of a unified technical world.

Successfully updated karma reason!

And don't forget that they were coerced into paying Universal Music a ROYALTY to be able to sell them, also the wifi "sharing" is automatically lathered with DRM (Digital Rights Management) that only allows 3 plays or 3days storage.

Another important point here as well:

EVERYTHING that goes on to this thing is slathered with DRM, whether your original files were DRM'd or not.

Keep in mind that everyone of these things is supporting the corrupt major label music ogliarchy (um, industry) & the Recording Industry Ass. Of America, which I go out of my way to not support or the artists that are signed to these thieves.

I personally use a Zen Micro Photo, there are some features I would like to see that it doesn't have but I can get over that, and since I don't care about video playback it's perfect for my needs

One major feature that I wish all of these media players had is the ability to mount them as a drive and not have to use ANY proprietary software except a driver to manage the files.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I have 2300 + songs (all ripped from the original CD in WMA lossless format) which have to be in either .mp3 or .aac (.m4p) format to run in iPod....The 'Zune' can read all three formats (.mp3, .aac, and .wma) making it more compatible with multiple media formats, and thus with more 'stock' computers.

In this case, that would seem to make lossless WMA a "proprietary technology requirement" And, in fact, it's one of your own choosing, not one enforced upon you by the hardware manufacturer. You're choosing to go a different route from the rest of "us", but that doesn't make our players "bad".

I have 3 MP3 players, and none of them play WMA lossless. Only one is from Apple.

Successfully updated karma reason!

unclerob

Join Date 08/2006

+40

Hey Wizop Corky O, I have Vista RC1 - never got around to downloading RC2, didn't think enough changed between rc1 & rc2 to merit spending the time to download another vista beta. Your vista rc2 will only run for so long and then you will have to purchase it to continue using it, I believe that beta 2, rc1 & 2 are only good for maybe 180 days but I could be wrong. I have also downloaded & used the office 2007 beta, and I think I'll stick with office 2k3.

Yes I still believe that Microsoft sells unfinished software to the public. I've been a system admin for the past 15 years and I've seen enough buggy software to know the difference.

I originally thought that Microsoft had designed the hardware for zune from scratch, turns out it's just a toshiba mp3 player with Microsoft software, no huge engineering feat there.

I think I'll stick by my first statement, I think Zune's first release will be less than stellar.
There are alot of mp3 players on the market, most offer better styling, less weight & size and better battery life than the Zune at probably competitive or better pricing. To be the best you have to beat the best, Zune is not an iPod killer yet.

It was nice to see someone reply to my comments, I often wonder if anything I post gets read around here.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

0

In this case, that would seem to make lossless WMA a "proprietary technology requirement" And, in fact, it's one of your own choosing, not one enforced upon you by the hardware manufacturer.

This is due to my owning the discs and having Windows Media Player, which offered the lossless format for free. I started going to concerts and collecting music well before CD's and was using the original 'Walkman' with cassette tapes. The iPod (or any other portable digital device) did not exist (outside of the old Sony D series DAT machines used at Dead concerts to record the shows) when I made my original choices. This lack of options at the time left the WMA lossless format as the best path to save my music with the best integrity possible.

The purchase of the iPod was indeed a personal decision, which included being required to convert the files to ones that could be read and played with the Apple offering. I really do like the iPod, but as I have mentioned, wish it was compatible with Windows Media Player and the '.wma' file format.

You're choosing to go a different route from the rest of "us", but that doesn't make our players "bad".

I apologize if it comes across as my thinking the other devices are bad. I have an iPod, and consider the 'Zune' to be a decent alternative for those who do not want to go the iPod route. The Creative products are reported to be good as well, but the article is recognizing the release of the 'Zune'.

Your vista rc2 will only run for so long and then you will have to purchase it to continue using it

Good until July 2007. Not bad for free, and the purchasable version will be the final release, so I would expect to pay for the work done by the engineers.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Corky_O, by iPod software are you referring to the "Windows drivers" that must be loaded so Windows recognizes the unit? This hardly counts as anything proprietary or unique and Zune is not immune to this. Currently, you can't even use a Zune on RTM versions of Vista, which is really odd. However, you don't have to use iTunes with the iPod. There are dozens of 3rd party apps out there for Windows, Mac and Linux to interface with the hardware. There's even a plug-in for WinAMP.

Also, WMA/WMV is a proprietary MS format. One that MS would like all it's user to adopt, extremely restrictive DRM and surcharges included, but this hasn't happened yet. I'm not sure why you consider only those 3 formats to be 'native' - to what? An unproven player like Zune? Why would anyone want to use wma specifically? The iPod supports a heck of a lot more formats 'natively' and at better quality levels. It's no great loss that a proprietary, un-popular format like WMA is left out in the cold... No reason Apple should pay royalties (and pass that charge on to customers) when it support better formats already. ...and the iPod can currently be used on a multitude of operating systems easily without iTunes, as I mentioned previously. I'd say the iPod has the standards covered a lot more thoroughly.

Link

...and while having a "Wireless" music player is great in theory, the type as used on Zune is not very exciting or likely to be very usable... Assuming you can even FIND another Zune user, do you think someone really wants to waste time sharing files, only to have DRM added to them to where they 'expire' and cease to be playable after so many plays/hours? I'm, also, not sure what the wireless feature has to do with firmware upgrades, either.

Finally, MS isn't trying to unify anyone except for the purposes of locking them into DRM'd WMA...and the only reason MS is releasing it's own player now is that all the other manufacturer's can't seem to get their sh*t together and produce a player or a music store to make major headway in the market and garner MS money from it's DRM contracts. Finally, if MS was trying to push towards a unified technological world, don't you think they might start by supporting the very products they initially released and/or supported under the "Plays For Sure" banner and that is currently used by other partners like Napster, MTV, etc? MS is expecting the customer to re-purchase ALL their music all over again just to go from one form of DRM'd WMA to another (Luckily, hardly anyone purchases music from those small online retailers).

So, limited platform, limited formats, restrictive DRM. Nope, Zune doesn't look very compelling at all actually... even less so than it did before I found this article today.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

0

jtfolden,

I would say that the three most popular 'computer' file formats for all current users would be the three mentioned: .aac (native Apple format), .wma (native Windows format) and .mp3 (probably the most common format thanks to 'WinAmp'.

By native, I mean to the operating system.

Whether you like the 'Zune' or not, it is still an option for other users. The firmware updates due to be released (at least based on current review knowledge) are to improve the wireless technologies, which - I believe - will include blue-tooth technology. This would obviously allow users to interface with the sync functions wirelessly (probably a big plus for the notebook user who does not want to carry extra wires).

As for DRM, are you saying that Microsoft is behind the DRM? Or the music industry? If it is really Microsoft, would you not expect an 'anti-trust' lawsuit to be in play by now?

What is it you believe that the PC owner needs to install to use an iPod? Drivers only?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

0

Here is an article that popped up about DRM in the broader application http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/fair_use_and_drm.html

Based on this, I can't see blaming Microsoft for this one.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Zune is a joke

and most of all a very weak attept to take over the ever dominating iPod. I think this is Microsoft's expensive way of getting attention since Vista is also a joke as well. Sorry but I'll give XP two more years before I even think about an upgrade. Imagine a Retail version of Vista with all the Viruses waiting to go off on the release date.

And Yes!!! Zune has WiFi but wait I need another Zune to do that. Go get a PSP if you want to transfer pictures wirelessly. Well good luck to you Apple rebels out there

go retaliate with Microsoft's new Zune.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Corky_O, you seem to miss a BIG difference between the three file formats under your concern. One of them is not like the other.

WMA is a proprietary format created by Microsoft for use on Windows and by Windows Media Player. It has virtually no solid or official support on any other platform. MS even pulled their Windows Media player off the Mac, intentionally limiting it's use even further.

AAC and MP3 are independent, standardized formats supported across all modern operating systems from Windows to Mac to Linux, BSD, Unix, etc... AAC (developed by the MPEG group that includes Dolby, Fraunhofer (FhG), AT&T, Sony and Nokia) is not an Apple created or native format of their OS and, even though the standard was originally proposed in 1997, it wasn't even included in iTunes until around v4.0 and the advent of the Music Store in 2003.

Obviously, the Zune is an option - simply because it exists. This doesn't make it a good one. If for some reason iPods didn't exist there are still plenty of better options available rather than the Zune (itself just a do-over of the Toshiba Gigabeat). Also, I'd love to know of any solid source for a firmware update being able to deliver a hardware feature (Bluetooth) nor does this make it able to sync with a PC nor connect to the 'net.

Finally, there's no reason to debate the initial legal impetus that brought about the industry need for DRM, I'm sure MS would love to forego it and sell even more units - HOWEVER, it's no secret that the DRM as used by WMA advocates under the "PlaysForSure" banner has generally been greatly more restrictive than that used by Apple in it's Music Store. For example, songs from the iTunes Music store can be played on up to 5 different computers, copied to as many iPods as you wish and can be burned to CD an unlimited number of times. I haven't looked yet but my guess is MS had to intentionally avoid it's very own PlaysForSure initiative with Zune in order to attempt to provide similar terms.

I'm afraid I don't understand your last question. You don't HAVE to use iTunes with the iPod if you really have some beef with it. Other options are available. Are you complaining because you can't use Windows Media Player with the iPod? Because you can't use a Zune with WMP, either.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Zune - an alternative to iTunes

Zune - an alternative to iTunes

Now available at retail stores