Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Blog: So what kind of community do you want?

Some late Spring thoughts on WinCustomize.com

Summer approaches and June is when we start to put together all our plans for the next year. It is traditionally the slowest time of the year as people go outside and find other things to do. Things start to get interesting again usually around August. Right now we're working on a new website for Stardock then the same team will start to re-skin WinCustomize.com. Our hope is to make it so that user swill be able to eventually skin the site themselves (or at least WC subscribers).

We're going to have to make some tough decisions on what skin sections to highlight and which ones to not be on by default. If you look closely on the skin gallery list on the left, you'll see a little wrench thing. If you click on it, you can control which skin galleries appear by default and which ones don't. So users can already control this. But some galleries are clearly on the way out.

It's a time of change for our community. The community grows and as it grows, new people come in with their own ideas and preferences. Old favorites like Litestep (for instance) start to fade away. Litestep is likely to stop being a default gallery shortly. What about Winamp and for that matter, the entire "skinned" media player movement. What's the future of that? Gadgets and widgets have taken some of the wind out of those things.

Another long-argued issue in the skinning community revolves around fair-use and copyrights. WinCustomize.com has long had, by far, the strictest rules on copyright of any major skin site. We've tried to protect people's copyrights very aggressively. But at the same time, we want users to be able to share and download things that they want. This site doesn't exist in a vacuum. Our friends at deviantART have over 22 million items in their galleries. It's a different kind of site from WinCustomize so it's not quite an apples and apples comparison. But they don't have moderation. So we try to find a happy middle ground where rips and such are quickly removed but at the same time we allow fan art.

I've written a post here that outlines our policy in more detail with regards to copyright, fair use, and rips.

Going forward, skinning is going to become much more popular than it is even today. And this year, our job is to fix up and enhance the infrastructure we have on WinCustomize.com to deal with what is almost certainly going to be an unprecedented level of traffic when Windows Vista comes on the scene. With so many new galleries, new software, and new users, we need to start thinking about -- all of us -- what kind of community we want to be.

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thomassen

Join Date 01/2003

+10

Cool!
Will this new WC site have it's layout fully CSS powered so we only need to create CSS files and not mess with templates and such?

Did I miss that chat btw?

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Brad,
I've only been a part of this community for about 3 years now (much shorter than some "veteran" skinners and such). I still haven't skinned one thing yet. But thoroughly enjoy this site and all the excitement it brings to me to be able to skin my comp. That being said:
Over my 3 years of being here I have never felt that you & your staff have ever been anything BUT on top of the game. You seem to be one step ahead & I trust your judgement. Keep up the good work.
I would LOVE to see more premium suites offered from this site by the pro skinners!!

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Couldn't agree with Post #2/Mr. Beesley more as it's a carbon copy/profile of my time here since finding WinCustomize seraching for wallpapers & just stumbling onto it by accident - what luck!! Thx Brad & Co - And Mr. Beesley!

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There are many great features available to you once you register. Sign Up for a free account and browse the forums without ads.

Personally, I think the site should be all .php instead of .asp, but that would be quite difficult.

As for the side links:

BootSkins
CursorXP
DesktopX Objects
DesktopX Themes
DesktopX Widgets
IconPackager
Logons
Misc. Icons
ObjectBar
ObjectDock
Screen Savers
ScreenShots
WallPapers
WindowBlinds

Should all be default.

Hopefully suggesting this stuff isn't rude of me

. After all, I haven't been here as long as most people. I hope to see a great wincustomize in the future

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Huh! I never noticed that little "wrench" icon before!

If you're planning to keep an option like that, it really doesn't matter to me what is "default". Anything that could possibly help speed up the site would be in the best interests of everyone here, I believe.

The site's cookin' today!

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Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

IMO - priority #1 needs to be consistent site performance, whether it be 10 seconds to load a page, or 3 seconds to load a page (based on a broadband connection). I think that people would tend to get used to whatever speed it is as long as it is consistent.

After that I would say whichever programs run well under both Vista and XP would have the most exposure in the general user base, so galleries that cater to those programs would be good.

I would also recommend creating a "Widescreen" wallpaper section (or easy link inside of wallpaper library), due to the increasing popularity of these monitor screens, which will probably increase over the next year. This may invite artists to create more of them as well.

As for "WinAmp", I believe this is still one of the major players, so default accessibility would probably receive traffic (if this is desirable based on cost of said traffic vs. resources to pay for it).

Gadgets (for Vista) will probably play into the future, as long as they are tested and of high quality and variety.

The forum page (being overhauled and / or redesigned) is a must for community support.

Assuming WindowBlinds, IconPackager, ObjectDock, and ObjectBar are all fully compatible with Vista (final release) - I can see value added content being important to users in these libraries. I did not see anything in the Vista Beta 2 that would preclude these programs doing well (assuming full compatibility ).

Again, the consistency of the site performance would be of great importance for "word of mouth" advertising.

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priority #1 needs to be consistent site performance, whether it be 10 seconds to load a page, or 3 seconds to load a page

I definately agree with that. Even after the big server upgrade, things don't seem to be as smooth as they could be.

Where resolution is a factor (wallpapers, bootskins, DX themes, logons, etc.) there should be a different section, or a way to sort by resolution.

The wrench is a good idea, but apparently not everyone even knows it's there. If people were more aware that they could customize the list, the default apps wouldn't be as important.

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I can see Litestep dropping off the front page.....there hasn't been all that much in the way of new themes in the past year or two...and I think that goes for pretty well anywhere...not just here...

I think Bootskins are more a 'curiosity' than a legitimate skinning entity....fewer and fewer people have a practical use for them...either their BIOS does not support them...or they never reboot [almost], anyway.

Screenshots need not be front-page, either. They really are incidental to skinning/GUI creation....not the 'Real McCoy'....they aren't the skins themselves...

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I'm sorry to do this, but I disagree with you a little, Jafo. I LOVE Bootskins. True, I might not reboot all too often, but if I'm wanting to customize my comp. to have a full theme, I love being able to incorporate that in the way that my system boots up. Not to say that your points aren't valid, but I appreciate the bootskin section. As well, like the other areas of skinning, the great ones are highly distinguished and separated from the average bootskins.

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I might not reboot all too often, but if I'm wanting to customize my comp. to have a full theme, I love being able to incorporate that in the way that my system boots up.

For that 'fully skinned experience' I think back to the skinning of the BSOD in Win98 .....I for one would see as much value in that as I do with booting....after all, it's why I tend to be rebooting, anyway [lately]...

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I never noticed that wrench either. I know it wasn't there when this current version of Wincustomize was created, but I don't recall reading a mention that it was added. Of course I usually use SDC for my skin browsing, so not that big a deal.

It is interesting how media player skins seem to be falling by the wayside. Its especially ironic considering Winamp basically started the skinning community. I've never been one to change my skin much for my media player usually winamp) since I usually keep it hidden or very small. Plus as mentioned there are other ways to control media. I use FoxyTunes as well sometimes and so only need have the media player running.

I think perhaps what should be done is have the Stardock apps that are most popular constantly on the main page. Then have a spot where you rotate the lesser known ones on a monthly basis. Also have another spot where you rotate the lesser known programs that already have galleries but don't deserve to be there on a constant basis. Need to add a hot new program as well that is skinned to add to the library.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

1) I agree the consistent site performance should be the top priority. However, you can only throw so many people at that. It's a mystery to us too. Right now, the site is incredibly fast. But other times, it bogs down. The issue seems to have something to do with IIS but it's hard to narrow down what happens with it.

2) I think Boot skins are pretty popular in their own right. More popular than most of the other sections. They also give people the opportunity to contribute without having to be a skinning expert.

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Has there ever been consideration given to a "static" site for non-customers? Many of the problems you describe in a past thread of yours I read could be gotten rid of using this idea.

I'm thinking a relatively small site with a reasonable choice of downloads, that is heavily focused on attaining new customers. Build the site and update it only once an month, or less. Keep it entirely separate from WC save limited forum access. This would relieve the pressure on this site and free up some labor resources. That way, if the traffic increases past a given amount, you are not preventing paying customers from accessing the site with server errors and what not.

Should a non-customer hit the "bottleneck" that keeps happening here.... maybe (I don't know how servers work), you could set up a bandwidth "trigger" that sends people to a "friendly" page which instructs them to try again later or, click on a supplied link to go to purchase a WC subscription or, go to Dev. Art for instance.

I'm picturing a "home" page with a number of selections for a person to choose from. You could include links to the other skinning sites for example. That will feather off some of the traffic. A choice to go to the "limited site". Having limited browsing and downloading ability will cut down on bandwidth. And another link with access to the main site for Stardock customers and WC subscribers which would require a password.

The "forums" could be accessed from the limited site, but you could section them off so that non-customers could post questions about the products and not much else. IOW they would have access only to "Stardock Support".(Which is answered, many times, by the users and, not Stardock. It's all good!)

If you carefully select the right skins to motivate potential customers, the inability to download past XX MB's will push them towards purchase. It did me. But for everyone to have access to everything is, in my opinion, wasteful. You are paying to have people download files that, should they NOT purchase, they will discard anyways. They are deleting YOUR MONEY. A person can get a very good understanding of the products with 20 download options in each major, shareware category. Throw in a few pages of previews and hook-em.

Lastly, I would stress a $69 option for purchase, which would include OD and a WC subscription. Make the $49 version available, but stress the $69 one. For myself at least, it is much more pallet-able to swallow $69 once then $49 + $20. I don't know why that is, but it is (for me). (I am a subscriber however).

If they show interest in the $69 package but seem to be navigating away, it's not that hard to re-direct them to the $49 offer. I'm sure you've seen this in your net experiences.

I was discussing, with a very dear friend of mine, the problems I've been having with my own business. She does therapy, counseling, corporate gatherings etc. etc.. She told me that much of the trouble I was having, was likely due to the fact that I charge less, (much less) then most. The example she gave me was as follows.....(This has been tested, she says, and shown to be true)(I could get the study for you)(Assuming she can locate it again.)

If you put...... a table out on your front lawn with a "Free" sign on it, people will be LESS likely statistically to stop and take it then if you would have put $10 on it. I have since been witness to this being true. (Though I thought it was bologna).

So if you apply this principle to WC, you might say that this doesn't apply. Oh, but it does!

Once you begin to get something for free, you start to EXPECT it to be free. The software that needs to be sold becomes a victim. Not that using your programs as shareware is a bad thing. It's not. But people download the programs, for free. Then, they download all of the skins and icons. Again, for free. By the time the trial runs out, they are so used to getting everything for free that the $49 may as well be $100 or more.

I honestly believe that if you polled your WC subscribers and Stardock customers, a majority of them made a decision to buy, or not, early on. So eliminating the "dead weight", and/or the people running hacks, is only going to benefit Stardock and WC. Not that you can't throw 'em a bone. Human nature being what it is, if you block them after XX MB's, you can always tell them that they can come back in 30 days and download another XX MB's. It keeps them interested.

From everything I've read, you more or less consider WC to be a liability. I completely disagree. It's the pot o' gold at the bottom of the rainbow.

You have stated that WinCustomize is rated somewhere in the top 5,000 websites in THE WORLD. With those kinds of statistics, you should have advertisers salivating over getting a spot here. Problem? They don't know. Fix that and WinCustomize not only pays for itself, it will become profitable.

Think of all the people who go to great lengths to create products that your software can run. I've never seen such a thing, short of Karaoke. It's built in entertainment. And it's free! As are most of these skins. I'm not even going to mention the potential to make people like JJYing or, Gef filthy rich. The ideas overwhelm me. Affiliate programs, gifts to skinners, programming contests...good grief!

As long as you consider this a "guilty pleasure", that is unjustified financially, you are going to hold it back. All of the customers, stat's and problems, are saying that you have created something unusual and, of potentially superior value. Use it. Look at the "problem" RomanDA had. You can do that over and over. Just as you have re-invented the desktop, so should you re-invent marketing as pertains to your site. You have the skinners, get some fresh ideas.

I'm done. I'm sorry I've rambled on here. I want to see this site flourish and, you and your very nice family tag along with it. I guess you'd call it brainstorming. I haven't been this passionate since the days when I used to perform and write. (No, never famous. Very popular, famous?....no)

I wish you and yours the very best either way.
But could you please let the Frog go one day?

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I am going to disagree with the last post. Charging for skins is the quickest way to lose visitors to this site. It is one thing to purchase the programs that make all of this happen. That is to be expected. And your package deal is a great idea. If need be raise the price $10 and see what happens. But don't start charging for skins.

We have become a society that expects instant gratification and then moves on to something else. You can debate the good and bad of this but what is reality is that 99% of the people who come here do so to pick something new, play with it for a while, and then discard it for the next skin that catches their eye. The whole point of skinning is not to exchange a stock desktop that everyone gets with Windows for your own personal one. It is to be able to personalize your desktop as much and as often as you wish. I am changing my desktop almost on a weekly basis. Today I spent a good hour surfing the Internet looking for just the right "accesories" to go with next week's wallpaper and WB. If I had to pay for each and every piece of my desktop that I have downloaded in the last months I would say adios and move on to something else. And I suspect most other people would do the same.

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TYCUS

Join Date 09/2004

+43

i wish that one day i can make use of the site a 100% with my Opera browser...

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But don't start charging for skins.

Assuming you are talking about my post, I absolutely DO NOT advocate charging for skins. At least no more than is done now.

I'm just suggesting that people are not being directed properly. By paying $20 for website access, you are paying for just that. You aren't paying for the skins. The value is added by the amount of potential downloads available to the consumer, as well as the bandwidth.
A 20 skin limit per month via a 60 day trial, will give them many more options then you say you use yourself. (i.e. Changing skins every week)

Charging for skins, in many cases, would be a tad insulting IMHO.

We agree on everything. That's my long winded point.

By the way, why include the Stardock Bitmaps in the download for WC? I haven't seen any example of them being utilized anywhere on this site. Just an observation.

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One more thing (I know, I know). Make the artists "Rock Stars"! There are people here who can do more things with digital art, then I can do vocally. (Yes, I'm a bit full of myself). Help them be recognized by more than happenstance. It's not like we don't all know exactly who they are.

People come here to see "Kiss". They want to know about "Kiss". Let them know about "Kiss"!

Exploit it!

Make it painfully obvious! Personal pages are fine, but they do not demand the same respect as the "headliners" would at a rock concert now do they?
All of the shades of grey are fine, and necessary. Lawrence Welk has his place (still, Ugg,) in this world. Just give customers better access to the rock stars.

O.k. I'm done. (really). I will only respond now.
Exept to plead for the freeing of the Frog!

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Fairyy~

Join Date 02/2004

+49

2)Frogboy: I think Boot skins are pretty popular in their own right. More popular than most of the other sections. They also give people the opportunity to contribute without having to be a skinning expert.

So do screen shots - although I only make a screen shot occasionally these days - others routinely make them so they feel they are part of WC.

Jafo:Screenshots need not be front-page, either. They really are incidental to skinning/GUI creation....not the 'Real McCoy'....they aren't the skins themselves

I'm surprized you were the one to say that Jafo. You always took the other point of view on screen shots - they might not be the real McCoy - but they usually are done to introduce skins and or applications that might have gone unnoticed. As for boot skins - I leave the room when I reboot so they arent on my hit parade.

I really think those premium skins need replacement.. They are so outdated at this point.

But, without site performance being consistant - then the rest takes a back seat.
Although page loading has been pretty good the past few days.

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Fairyy~

Join Date 02/2004

+49

As for charging for skins - I see nothing wrong with it at all. I have bought skins. Maybe people that come here just to " take " and leave might be more grateful for all the free stuff they do get. The time involved in skinning a blind ( slthough most do it because they choose to as a hobby ) can be weeks - especially if its a full suite. Im not advocating that the site be tons of stuff requiring money - but I think each top skinner deserves the right to make a little money from their hard work.

The option of buying Object Desktop and a WC subscription in one package is a good idea. I know myself, I just hate filling out order forms - a "package deal" seems the way to go.

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

The best thing to happen to the community in quite sometime were the mini skinning competitons that were starting up on a regular basis. Things like that unite most of the community. I don't think the prizes really matter in these contests as they have not been very big, yet the contests have been succesful.

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I'm surprized you were the one to say that Jafo.

Fairyy~ ....don't forget...I'm the Number One Fan of Litestep here...yet agree it should probably not be frontpage....so it's not like I'm inconsistent.

Both have their place...but neither is as significant as [the current appeal for] Windowblinds, or...who knows what will be new and exciting with the advent of Vista, etc....

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