Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1845

Insults and their handling.....

As many know, I've been a Building Designer [Architect] for over 30 years.....there's 'one or two' buildings [mostly domestic] scattered all over the countryside...from Beauty Point [near where those miners were trapped] to Alice...[near the big rock thingie] to Brisbane [where everyone goes to retire, yet wears bikinis...like Florida - [eek]], but mostly in good old Victoria.

Yesterday I was on a building site....bunch of chippies were cleverly finding the hard way to frame an extension [one of mine]....and one of them said "Geez these are shitty plans".

A few wandered off and the young apprentice was still there with me...so I said "Oh, it's always nice to see the drawings are appreciated"

Bit of a pause then the penny dropped. "Are these yours?"

"Yep...I've been doing these crappy drawings now for thirty years....strangely they all got built...and none fell down".

Interesting thing was.....I 'noticed' the insult...but it didn't actually bother me at all.

Sometimes the severity of the 'slight' is dependent on the qualification of the critic.

Well....probably that's ALWAYS.

When people insult or attack your professional reputation it is often through ignorance [their own] or simply intended to get a rise out of you.

If/when you react they win.

If you do not - they lose.

Technically I didn't react.....and considering I'd been in the 'game' as long os their 3 careers combined it wasn't all that hard to discount them.

Maybe it's from looking out for all you guys here....that my skin is now much thicker....but there's possibly something to learn from this....

Don't be baited/goaded into a 'flame war'...

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You're an architect

!! Omg, thats what I have wanted to do as far back as I can remember. Ever since I saw Habitat '67 by Moshe Safdie in Montreal (Canada) I have loved his work. Building something unique; its your own form of art. You wouldn't happen to have any images of anything you have designed would you?

Anyway, to stay on topic (

), I love seeing people squirm when they think they can get a rise out of me

. It just totally ruins their fun, which they shouldn't be having at others expense anyway

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Well put.

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I've always wanted to tell people I was an architect.

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Sometimes the severity of the 'slight' is dependent on the qualification of the critic.

Whoa, that was truly good.... and so true!
You certainly have a way with words

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Link

It's just a joke Jafo!

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Jafo, I can relate. For 30 yrs. have been a carpenter, project lead, framer, cabinetmaker, Sun Valley log home builder/finisher, roofer, licensed Calif. contractor, yadada yadada... and have been blessed with quite a tough hide from it all. Not to say I still don't get up on my hind legs and get ignorant at the drop of a hat...I'll even drop it.

strangely they all got built...and none fell down".

That's the bottom line, eh?

How come it takes so many miles to mellow out?

'flame war'

...always tempting, but...naah

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Being a carpenter myself..I have read quite a few of those well drawn plans...*Cough, Cough*
I do lumber and material take offs before we start the projects, fortunately I am able to catch quite a few of these little "imperfections" before we go into production.

I Haven't read any of yours specifically, but I can pretty much say for certain after my own 25 years in the trades, that nobody and nothing is absolutely perfect..Like it or not, mistakes happen, and more times than not, it's at the very beginning,

Of course we cant give any credit to those guys that are actually putting together whats "drawn on paper" and really doesn't "always" work in the real world..now can we?

Carpenters..or as you call them "chippies" aren't always "politically correct" and they don't mind losing a little sweat and blood (teeth hair eyeballs..LoL) and they definitely aren't shy about calling a piece of crap..a piece of crap...

Architect's and Carpenters are definitely 2 very different breeds, but they must learn to work together to reach that final goal a "well built finished product".
The only way to achieve that is through very good communication, which really can only happen if each understands one another and the process's it involves to reach that final goal...
Usually the people who hold the "attitude" of being "Better" or "A class Above" all the rest, are generally where issues begin, and they tend to get pretty ugly.

I'm not saying that these particular carpenters didn't have a clue and would not know one if you thumped them over the head with it! ..LoL, Gods know I have kicked waaay to many of those off the job, personally...

I am just pointing out that when you take a picture, thats on paper and try to fabricated what it is in the real world..it doesn't always work, especially with new building codes, or in the case of building a complete custom.

Thats all..
Now carry on..LoL

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I can relate..I'm a granite worker by trade. I sculpt (for lack of a better word) by hand, the profiles of alot of granite counter tops. and there are installers dont seem to understand the time and energy that goes into this work. I had an installer say "it sucked". but instead of taking it personal, I laughed it off. My client loved the profile. Thats all that mattered. and none of my granite-work has had to come up.

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I've always thought (and sniveled out loud about at times...

) that engineers and draftspersons might be required to spend an obligatory 2 years "in the field" b4 being issued a license. The balancing move might be that all the crafts...chippies

, masons, and all, have familiarity with the design end of it. Dunno, tho...long ways between personalities sometimes. Takes lots of macho to "walk walls". [

"Hey! You lookin' at me, man?!"

]

Technically I didn't react.....

the big rock thingie

LOL! Always wondered how you blokes referred to it!

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In defense of Jafo, (believe that?), I really don't see how they can judge anything as "sucking" until the job is COMPLETELY done.

I know little about construction, (though my pseudo Father in law is Owner/Contractor of a construction company (read, I should know more), anywho, I don't think anyone can judge something as complex as the plans being talked about here without having done the job that Jafo speaks of. Even then, I'm not sure they could understand the intricacies of dealing with the wants of some, the needs of others and the eventual outcome.

I have watched many documentaries on major architectural achievements. This doesn't mean I'm educated on it, but, the one thing that rings true with ALL of them is, people told the designer essentially the same thing as what Jafo heard. "It can't be done" "It can't be done for this amount of money" Blah, Blah.

Still, in the end, there is only the opinion of the "end user" that really matters. Anything else is bologna.

I'm not a gambler, but I bet some of the same people who Poo Poohed say, the Empire State building, the World Trade Center or, the Golden Gate bridge, proudly proclaimed "I helped build that" when done. Now, the "Big Dig"? The Denver Int. Airport?...Yeah, they might have an argument here. But Jafo is, I assume, in very familiar territory.

To the credit of Jafo, he walked away. That's why he is who he is. And, I think he's right. He understood that they see through completely different glasses....Great. (Better than I) He had personal time to "deal with it" and he shared the outcome. Was it a "vent"? Amongst friends, who cares.

I worked at Burger King when I was a kid. They had an "always changing menu". That sucked. For me. I had to learn all of that crap. I pissed and moaned how I didn't like it.

They are still in business, doing the same things they did them and, more. Me? I'm definitely not serving up Whoppers. I see this as a "Win-Win", but there is a point to be had here if you wish to discover it.

I feel sorry for the Contractor. He/she must have had to excuse those people to go home and change their shorts.

I mean, what did the Contractor do wrong?

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Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

Well done, Jafo.

I find that the hardest (and most important) part of a difficult situation, is keeping the mind calm enough to see clearly.

The calm mind allows us to approach any interaction with some level of appropriate expression, whether a mistake has been made or not.

In my life, this philosophy was introduced during a few years of martial (Aikido) training, but I have found that it (the philosophy) exists in many forms throughout the various lives and interests of family, friends, and new aquaintances alike.

It is always a good feeling to realize that one has dealt with a difficult situation well.

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Lantec

Join Date 07/2003

+346

<---This is me refraining from relating any interesting/blood pressure raising contractor stories.

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We call 'em "sea stories". Apt.

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ah yes the ever so not popular "Flame War"
i hate to get into them and most of the time i wouldnt waste my time.....
see the point is um a grown man as well and do not want to waste my time arguing over anything, i have always been like this my whole life and although i have kept my mouth shut and put up with alot!!
i did recently lose my cool and it was unfortunaly on this site!
see: https://www.wincustomize.com/ViewSkin.aspx?SID=1&SkinID=15933&LibID=13&comments=1

i had recently lost a 80gb harddrive and it had all my very personal info on it....including music and videos i have produced (i am a musician) i was very upset about losing my music but not only that i lost all my skins, wallpapers and icons....as well as photos and whatnots...

i had submitted a screenshot and someone had stated that it was "always the same"
i had clearly stated to this person that i had lost all my stuff and was trying to get it back and wanted to post sumthin since i had lost everything only days before.....and as well i found it quite rude for that person to comment seeing as i was sending them the skins i had began to re-collect and other things as well...that this person didnt have!!
as well that person clearly stated to me they didnt want to pay for windowblinds because he didnt want to make the company rich?? this conversation was over messenger and was documented.....

either or ......i would like to say i am sorry for the "Flame War" and it will not happen again...

peas
cityboy

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

I have been around enough jobsites to hear too many people knocking the Architects. Most are correcting something they did wrong and are just pointing blame. I think you have to expect critisism to get harsher the higher up the ladder you go. That critisism will come from all types of personalities. I think the better man will know this.

When someone is rude you have to first ask yourself...do they have a point? If they do,hear it. The fact that someone is rude doesn't change the fact that something is a half hearted attempt. People can be rude but they can also be right at the same time. If someone leaves a rude comment but actually has a point, you are the ass not to hear it. That little bug urging to you flame back is only denial.

A senseless rude comment is what it is and should be ignored and not spoken of unless it is being removed. When someone leaves a rude comment and a random member jumps in and flames back, everyone loses except the rude bastard. Don't enable them. The chaos and rallying is what they want.

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Very well said!

I apprenticed under the most orneriest S.O.B that you would ever care to meet..
He is a true craftsman, but people skills aren't one of his strong suites..
Yelling, screaming, belittling was a daily event, hourly usually, LoL..but I found by tuning all of that out, and paying attention to what exactly his points were, I was able learn quite a bit from him.
My reward, was the same for me as it was for him, my advancement in the skills of the trade...
The mere mention of his name locally, and the fact that I apprenticed under him carries ALLOT of weight and gains more work for me than I can take on usually.

I call him my "2cnd" dad..LoL grumpy ol "_______"

I guarantee he has said more than enough rude things about Architect's, but his points are valid, his way of expressing them may not be..but you can learn from it, if you ...listen..

One thing I find to be true, If you have never put a hammer in your hand and strung out a cord and saw to build something, you cant really know exactly whats involved..
Looks great on paper...go build it and see if it works like it does in the picture.

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An architect?

I thought you were a lexicographer.

As for the rest...well...i just can't put any more words to it. Nicely put Jafo.

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Contractors usually blame the plans and, oh yes, the utilities for being inches away from the foundation, not to mention the weather. Nothing new.

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keeping the mind calm enough to see clearly

Thanks.

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Contractors usually blame the plans and, oh yes, the utilities for being inches away from the foundation, not to mention the weather. Nothing new.

That really is an "unknowlegable" statement.

Ahhh Yes, Plumbers & Electricians are a favorite target of Carpenters, and vice-versa..There is a just a bit of a "rivalry" there, you wouldnt understand unless you actually were in the "trades".
Since each trade is also a "Contracted" trade..we are all "contractors"
And it is a *Fact* that all the different trades do tend to point blame at the plans/prints/drawings..etc..etc.. Some cases it's valid, some cases it isnt..

A few inches in most cases, is no small mistake..

Usually though I find "finger pointing" and throwing the blame around is unproductive and really left best for those to deal with that it really pertains to. *Fixing the mistake and moving on with production at an acceptible pace is much more gratifying, and makes for a larger paycheck, LoL.."Muy Importante" Bonus's are awesome too!

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