Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Sidebar in next public Windows Vista build

Sidebar: Hype or function?

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Windows Sidebar With 16x9 displays becoming increasingly important, Microsoft's new Sidebar, scheduled for release in Windows Vista and also to be back ported to Windows XP may be the right program at the right time.

The sidebar is essentially a container for "gadgets". Gadgets are similar to widgets except they don't require a special enabler in order to use. Stardock plans to support Microsoft's Sidebar in a variety of ways depending on the final implementation.

Originally, Microsoft planned to have the Sidebar support gadgets made either via DHTML or as Windows Presentation Foundation (Avalon) gadgets. However, the company seems to be focusing more on DHTML gadgets in order to allow those gadgets to be able to run on both the desktop and on web pages seamlessly (something Avalon gadgets would not be able to do since they would require the browser to support Avalon explicitly).

The question that remains to be answer is whether Microsoft's particular implementation of the Sidebar is compelling enough for users to adopt when Google and even Stardock have their own "bars" that can do much the same thing.

We think it'll boil down to two things:

1) The content of course.

and

2) Whether there is a compelling need to have a bar sticking around on the screen.

Taken together, Microsoft and others have to make the case that we need this. Sure, an RSS feed might be nice. But what else? Weather? Do I need weather info taking up screen space 24/7? Or a big clock? Or MP3 controls? This isn't a new issue.

For all the hype widgets/gadgets have received over the past few years (and we've certainly been part of that) no one seems to have answer to that question: Why. Can Microsoft come up with compelling content. Look at Microsoft's own screenshot carefully. It has a clock, an RSS feed, a picture, a couple of shortcuts, and an MP3 control. Is it worth 10% of your screen space for that?

We think that the Sidebar as a concept is good. The problem that remains to be solved is finding compelling content. Clocks and RSS feeds ain't it. Even with all the exposure Yahoo has given the Yahoo widget engine and all the press it's received, the typical widget for it gets less than 10,000 downloads (compare that to a "niche" thing like WindowBlinds or even a popular DesktopX theme or an icon package). The story seems the same -- widgets and gadgets simply don't have enough meat right now to be compelling. Someone needs to come up with content that goes beyond the mildly useful and into the realm of compelling.

What do you think?

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I'm a minimalist and very possessive of my screen space. I have very few on-screen icons and those are at the bottom of the screen just above the Taskbar. The only other stuff on my desktop are a clear calendar and a clear clock (both widgets). I really like the Quick Launch tool bar and use it constantly. The last thing I want is a big, honkin' sidebar hanging on the side of the screen. I guess it is fair to say I would never use one regardless of the content. All I want to see is a nice wall, a sharp Windowblind and well designed Icons.

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Corky_O

Join Date 04/2004

If I can have an analog clock, easy to work with To-Do list, E-mail, Internet, and "Quick Launch" links with customizable icons - it will become a staple on my widescreen notebook if the following is true:

- Sidebar can be set to auto-hide and the delay for bumping is adjustable

- Sidebar can be set to show over current explorer windows

- Alternatively, sidebar can be set to act like the taskbar and prevent windows from going over or under if preferred.

Otherwise, the taskbar and ObjectDock will be running for good, as it currently is.

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I like the "idea" of a sidebar, but agree completely with the fact that most content does not warrant the used screen space. I've found that the most useful content for me is shortcuts. I like to have my folder shortcuts, and certain application shortcuts handy all the time. For years I have wished that content in the Folder web view was more customizable for just this reason. Since that hasn't really materialized in any usable way I've decided to stick with the sidebar idea. I have common folder links, and all my favourite apps. (I personally never liked the quicklaunch bar since I like to be able to actually read my taskbar buttons) If Microsoft would make the Folder web view content customizable for folders then I think the sidebar is completely redundant. I can't for a moment imagine why anyone would need both. Otherwise think MS should go with the sidebar thing, but maybe have it more like the webview. Still allowing customization, but having the ability to change dependant on particualr folders, or folder content.

I also like to have an e-mail notify/launcher, a calendar and of course a weather object on my sidebar.

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I think it might be useful to have a sidebar be able to be used as a quick explorer view to find files or folders while still keeping your main window visible. Or as a place to store quick links so you don't have to wade through a discombobulated start menu.
I agree though a sidebar needs something useful instead of pretty gadgets. They are nice for awhile, but aren't necessary. Even my cool looking mp3 player I keep mostly hidden since I'm doing stuff and I'm not able to look at it.
People who need to see things constantly updated, might find it useful, such as for stocks or something.
We'll just have to see I guess. I don't have a widescreen monitor, so needless to say if I used a sidebar it would probably be on auto-hide.

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I think the sidebar is a good idea but I am in agreement that it should contain some interesting as well as practical "gadgets" beside clocks and CPU meters. I have used the Desktop Sidebar from another company and enjoyed having it on my desktop. I also use some of Yahoo's gadgets and find some very useful. I guess you could call me a gadget freak but I hope that Microsoft comes up with some new and fun ideas for their sidebar.The screenshot of Vista is beautiful!!!I have spent a lot of time with the great products from Stardock and Wincustomize trying to emulate Vista on an XP system and have done pretty well.I also like emulating a Mac OSX system as well.Just depends on what type of mood I'm in I guess.

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I think this is just Microsoft realizing that people like this kind of thing... Sysmetrix, Objectdock and so forth. But unless it's skinnable, fogedaboudit.

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This is just a way for Microsoft to sell Vista. They seem to do things kind of half-assed just to say it's a 'new feature' so they can move merch. I can't blame them for this, but I don't think Microsoft Gadgets will be as good as other widget software out there. People who truly want to change the look of their OS use WindowBlinds rather than the Blue, Olive or Silver Luna. And people who want great widgets/gadgets use DX, Yahoo Widgets, Kapsules, and others, not Microsoft Gadgets. And yet, most XP computers still use Luna, so Gadgets will probably be popular.

Windows is becoming a jack of all trades, master of none. Most people don't mind, but I wish Microsoft would put more into innovative ideas, rather than their own version of an old idea. But who knows, maybe Gadgets will be fantastic...or not.

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I've been using a sidebar of one sort or another, for years now. Customized Quicklaunch bars, Desktop Sidebar, Objectbar, ObjectDock, and now I've been rolling my own with DesktopX. The reason I like them is that they give easy quick access to the stuff I use most often. Essential to this for me is the option of auto-hiding the bar and having it always on top in the Z order. I don't even like the standard Windows taskbar unless it's set for auto-hide.

Given that, I don't really understand the screen space objection.

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kona0197

Join Date 02/2003

+86

I refuse to run my display on anything higher than 800x600 so the sidebar is a no for me.

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nice brain storming

I think the key to gadget "conent" lies in WinFS. To have meaningful ways to access your data.....always visible....is very much desireable screen space.

For instance, accessing your music collection instintaneously (no long cacheing of Windows media catalog). PLaying file types in their "native" player. Easily switching sorts/filters, ie. MFU, Genre, Artist, Playlists.

One big thing that is missing from Windows is improvment on the "system tray". Anyone who's used their computer for 6 months either doesnt need those silly warnings....or have given up caring and just cancels them out all the time. These types of messages, while great in theory, are of no use when you can't manage them.

A sidebar should have an "Alerts" area where the normal pop-up-help messages would be "logged". Simple forward/back/delete/clear all/"more info"/"disable this alert" buttons would allow for MEANINGFUL system alert monitoring. Then allow RSS readers, mail clients etc, to send their own alerts to this "system tray". You might need to say add a "category" option to the notification tray to make it all more managable. Naturally, a powerful but simple configuration system to manage it all (lol)

The above idea could converge 100 widgets data into one common format, taking up one small area of the screen. And THAT is good use of space. You could even make variations that use the same xml-ish format....like the long-lost "ticker display" that no one could ever put to good use.

I guess the point is that if any piece of your screen does not have multiple functions or advantageous organizational functions, then it's not a good use of screen real estate. 200x200 pixels for an alarm clock, while pretty, is not at all practical if it takes up space that could be used for your data. You might as well just go to a web page like "my.aol.com" or "live.com" and customize it to your liking.

This is the type of thing that Vista makes possible, yet will probably take a few years to mature. Microsoft would be wise to leave it open and expandable (read: managed code), to allow for all the "public contribution" that is all the rage. As always I will look to Stardock to fill in the gaps

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E-mail notification is great, I use Samurize as a "sidebar" and I like to see when I have e-mail available. Another nicety would be to have my IM buddies on my "sidebar" instead of having to open my client. If someone's online that I want to talk with I could then open the client. I also like to have weather available. Being somewhat of a geek I also like to have my system information available, CPU temp, hard drive capacities, RAM used/free, CPU perctage being used. None of this takes a lot of space on a sidebar. Shortcuts would probably be a good idea as well, a slide out bar from the "sidebar".

In conclusion, I think it's a good idea but I agree with one of the above posts, it should also have the capability of sliding into the side of the screen "hiding" it if the consumer doesn't want to view it 24/7 but does want it available.

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Here's my 2€
Sadly MS has never been a big player in the "user cutomisation" capability of their software (why else would there be all the neat stardock programs).
I don't doubt it to be customizable, but I doubt it to be customizable enough.
I count myself lucky to have ObjectBar and Desktop X to make use of their features.
It will come as a surprise to me if I can do with it all I can do with Rainlendar and -meter (although I wish Rainy's stuff to have an autohide feature

).

Have Fun!

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1846

I think the sidebar is for nothing more than differentiation...from the existing Windows OS...for the sake of being different - and no more than that.

Much the same issue has plagued that 'other' Windows shell 'Litestep' [vs Explorer]....there we all have the option to be as 'different' as we like....but look at the themes commonly made....all a top-bar ...or bottom bar, just like the default [Explorer]...and often indistinguishable from Explorer + WB + maybe Sysmetrix or DX, etc.

Conservatism and the status-quo....what plagues much of modern skinning.....[look at the prevalence of Luna-esque WBs] means to strike out for something 'new', MS has opted for a sidebar...as it will be [or can be] something the old OS [XP] does not do by default [ignoring SD's proggies, etc].

It's also not some dock-launcher thingie at the bottom that is often attributed to Apple [though it's been elsewhere for yonks as well].

Would I want it?....Only if Vista means I can never run Litestep...and I can look at that sidebar with a tear in my eye, thinking of 1997 and my first look at a LS Wharfbar.

New?

Hardly.....

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Some might like the way it looks, but I have remained in the "What's the point?" category. Never saw any real need for anything in a sidebar or dock for that matter.

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jazzymjr

Join Date 03/2004

+98

I agree with MountainDragon....I use Desktop Sidebar. I like a clean, uncluttered desktop, but want acess to my stuff. I autohide the sidebar and the taskbar. My quicklaunch icons are in the sidebar as well.

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Island Dog

Join Date 06/2003

+1048

I hope there's an option to remove it.

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Personally I will never use any kind of sidebar, regardless of how much screen space I have, simply because I don't want to bunch up all my widgets into one area, I like to spread them around. I also agree that there need to be more useful and more variety of widgets than what we have right now but I don't think that's Microsoft's responsibility, it's up to the community. What MS needs to do is make the sidebar flexible and compatible with other widget/gadget engines so that it's easy for people to use variety of gadgets regardless of how they were made.

Finally, I think that what a lot of people are missing is that this is a very good thing for gadgets. When MS supports something, when they put their entire PR department to promote it, and when it's a standard feature of the new OS, then it's a safe bet it's going to get popular. Sure, there will be a lot of people who will just use the default gadgets that come with the sidebar and won't know any better, but many more will be educated as to the wonderful world of gadgets

and as long as MS doesn't actively try to stifle the competition, the gadget market will only grow. Add to that the fact that Google will want to make their sidebar competitive (and I won't be surprised if they jump on the gadget bandwagon as well) and Yahoo will certainly want people to use their gadgets, and you got some healthy competition going, which is always good for business.

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Chasbo

Join Date 01/2005

+1048

I like the Vista sidebar. I guess it's as close as you can get to the real deal right now, ie, Vista. I tried IE7 Beta too but it didn't play nice with McAfee!

#1. I love the little slide show. #2. The clock looks real nice. #3. The news feed is good. #4. The search bar is good. #5. Using this little baby with Kol's VistaXP skin makes this as close to Vista as I can get. #6. I threw widescape weather by Yahoo widgets on top for my weather and it looks like it is part of the sidebar!

Isues: I wish I could auto hide it. It's always there. I wish I could load up some more gadgets for it.

I like having my "widgets" or "gadgets" in one place and since they are obtrusive by nature anyway I really don't mind the sidebar taking up some real estate.

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I'd prefer not to dedicate so much space to anything, regardless of it's efficiency (Just don't think anything provides that much necessity vs a mouse move & click). However, with that said, if widescreens become the norm, then we're all going to have blank space on each side of our wallpapers, a few customized walls or some ugly stretched walls. I think that a sidebar might fill that void there - so we have a full screen of use (at least until folks start kicking out the widescreen walls in abundance).

I'm probably like most folks (using Windowblinds, rainey's calendar, widgets & objectdock), I haven't seen the taskbar in I don't know how long.

I do, however, believe that if a sidebar is added to Vista, it will benefit all of the small/alternative programs out here, because suddenly, there will be a ton of exposure for the concept of a sidebar. If folks like it, but would like to customize, they'll search and find a whole new world of customization (i.e. the benefit of the side bar would be to introduce a new generation of OS customizers).

MS hasn't been an innovator in a long time (some may say never), but they do have a massive audience and they've always been able to introduce new concepts to a wide audience. These concepts may not be new to all, but they are to many.

I'd bet it's like the taskbar - you can hide - or with software, disable (i.e. object dock or the likes).

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thomassen

Join Date 01/2003

+10

Regarding the sidebar to take up screenspace, New monitors are most likely to adopt a widescreen format. With a widescreen format you can afford to use a little of your monitor space.

And will people want a sidebar? I think so. Just look what has happend after the sidebar first was presented. We now have DesktopSidebar and SmartbarXP. Both very much inspired by the sidebar in Longhorn.

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gef

Join Date 08/2001

+15

This has been around for ages here at Wincustomize courtesy of Martin and taking up space doesn't happen as the dock only appears on mouseover :

https://www.wincustomize.com/Skins.aspx?LibID=3&view=1&sortby=8&sortdir=DESC&p=1&advanced=0&searchtxt=expanding%20dock%20template

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

By the time it hits the market we will all be able to control our cursors with our eyes. This interface will be obselete.

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As a fairly new to pc modder and skinner , all I can add to this is that as far as I am concerned " you pay your money-you take your chance" , and as far as the DESKTOP SIDEBAR is concerned , MS themselves are using it as the Official Benchmark for their Vista Sidebar .. and you cannot get a better reference then that . . . Loads of panels,loads of skins,and lots of style - and yes, Lots of clocks - if you want them - and a really good community in their forum..... who will literally 'bend over backwards' to solve any problems that you might have . . . so , for me , Desktop Sidebar will always be better then Vista in that respect ... I am surprised that you dont have a link to Desktop Sidebar on your homepage,after all, a lot of users do use Wincustomise and Stardock , maybe it is time to return the compliment,folks .! ..( of course, you don't HAVE TO install either Sidebar )

BTW , you can autohide Desktop Sidebar,just like your taskbar should you so require...!

Here's a link : http://www.desktopsidebar.com/ - should anyone like to have a look . . !

Mike

( DESKTOP SIDEBAR .... Better then Vista,Mista ! )

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I depend on ObjectBar for two shortcut-type toolbars that auto-hide. But a gadget sidebar, especially one almost always on-screen, actually seems much less useful.

ObjectBar supports DX widgets already--DesktopX alone could make a more interesting sidebar than anything I've seen from Google or MS, as evidenced by the amazing array of themes available.

Sidebars seem like a compromise in an attempt to appeal to the masses. I think most would eventually prefer some flexibility. Why constrain yourself to a "Start Panel" and "SideBar" when you can have floating, docking, auto-hiding, and right-click enabled gadgets and navigation options?

If DesktopX, or some ObjectDesktop like suite, facilitates the organization of WPF/WinFX powered and styled gadgets into whole-desktop user GUIs, it will be in a great position to receive those users who first become intrigued by the SiderBars and want more.

In the end I feel it is customization and personalization that will be deciding factors in what method (MS SideBar, or DesktopX, or individual WPF gadgets, etc) people decide to use. That is, yes, interesting content is important in making gadgets/bars in general welcomed by the many newcomers to the concept, but eventually any SideBar content can be better presented, and even better integrated, by discrete widget type applications, or suites of them.

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Here is a larger image of the side bar: http://www.microsoft.com/library/media/1033/windowsvista/images/features/feat_sidebar_2.jpg

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